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S5 E19: Fake Leads


ICP Logo

S5 E19: Fake Leads




In the modern era of legal practice, the influx of fake leads poses a significant challenge. As law firms navigate this digital landscape, understanding and guarding against lead fraud and TCPA violations becomes paramount.

In the latest episode, Grace and Liel dive deep into the pressing issue of fake leads and the rising concerns around TCPA lawsuits. They also shed light on the upcoming National Trial Lawyers Association’s Business of Law Conference. Adding to the mix, they discuss the news about PowerPort chemo ports by Bard leading to injuries and subsequent lawsuits, highlighting the implications for the legal community.

Through their expert lens, they unveil strategies to discern genuine leads from fraudulent ones. Law firms seeking to shield themselves from lead fraud and anticipate TCPA-related legal challenges will discover essential guidance and strategies.

Resources mentioned in our episode:

If you enjoy the show, subscribe and leave us a review! Don’t forget to send us your questions and comments at ask@incamerapodcast.com.


Liel: [00:00:00] In the cutthroat world of mass tort litigation, Tcpa violation lawsuits are skyrocketing due to hedge fund investments wreaking havoc on law firms. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and author of Beyond Se Habla Español How Lawyers Win the Hispanic Market, and this is in Camera Podcast, where we dissect the legal industry’s battles with greed and compliance. Welcome to in-camera podcast private legal marketing conversations. Grace. Welcome back.

Grace: [00:00:57] How are you, Liel?

Liel: [00:00:58] I’m great. I’m really happy. I mean, honestly, I know it sounds ridiculous, but this is the only episode that we’re recording in October. And because we’re really kind of like in the final stretch of October and we’ve not really recorded anything since September. So, you know, it feels up in a certain way, kind of like a little bit of guilt. Right? But at the same time, you know, great that at least one episode is going to come out in October and ready to face the fact that we have a lot to talk about, because we’ve haven’t really had an opportunity to talk a lot about a lot of the things that we’re probably going to want to try to cover here over the past few weeks. Right. And so I’d love for you to get us started here with whatever is kind of like top of your mind.

Grace: [00:01:46] So, I mean, there’s so much going on and, you know, I’m glad that we started to talk about it even before we started recording. And so that’s why we’re recording and just getting into it for me, I think, you know, Camp Lejeune has kind of taken over my life, particularly with the elective option. So for those of you that know or don’t know, back on September 6th, the US Department of Navy released in fast track to what they call the elective option injuries on Camp Lejeune. What it means is basically there are ten specific injuries. Nine, really, but the 10th is what they call cardiac birth defect, but ten injuries that they’re going to accept as part of what they call fast track. So again, Camp Lejeune is not an MDL. It’s an administrative claim. So it was a bill that was passed. And so when you file for these claims, you’re not filing in the MDL court. You’re filing an administrative claim, which is a form with the US Department of Navy along with the forms that they provided. So this administrative claim is fast tracked for those nine specific injuries. And what it’s going to allow people to do is basically take the proof of presence, you know, that they were actually at Camp Lejeune, proof of injury, that they were hurt with one of those 9 or 10 injuries, and then they can file the claim. It’s really very fast. I mean, it’s a it’s a very different process than any other mass tort because of that. And for those attorneys that have been involved in Camp Lejeune, you also know that the attorney’s fees were reduced. So they were reduced from the standard, you know, 40%, 33 and a third for New York to 20% for an administrative claim. And that’s included as part of this kind of six month fast track elective option situation. And then it’s 25% if it becomes a lawsuit. In other words, it has to go to litigation. So they’re significantly reducing the attorney’s fees. But that was kind of on the radar. They all knew that was going to happen.

Liel: [00:03:50] Yeah, for some reason that doesn’t really seem like a shocker. I think for a while now. That’s one of the things that has been talked about, and we’ve actually addressed it in previous episodes where really we’ve seen how bad the PR personal injury lawyers were getting about the talk that they want to take veterans money at a rate that is really unjustified for basically filing a claim. And so I think, you know, this level of of regulation and processing, it’s a win. I will say it that way. Obviously, I know a lot in the industry. We’re hoping that accomplished June was going to be their shortcut to an early retirement. But the reality is that it’s the right thing to do. And the big winners here are hopefully veterans that are just going to have a fast track access to their compensation, because at the end of the day, that’s that’s what this is all about. And a good reminder, right? The unexpectedness of mass torts. Right. How sometimes things just just turn around. Although in this particular one, kind of like a lot of experts in the matter have been seeing this coming. You amongst them, Grace. So I guess a lot of work now trying to process all of the side cases. Right. That’s that’s where you’re saying, okay, we’re busy because we being kind of like piling up all of these claims, and now we need to put them through the new process at once.

Grace: [00:05:20] Yes, exactly. And so it’s a fast track of those specific injuries. You know, it doesn’t mean that the other individuals that have other what they call tier two injuries aren’t going to be considered part of it. And it also doesn’t mean where I think a lot of people forget this part. It’s 100 to 550,000 in compensation for the fast track elective option. That doesn’t mean that we have to take it. If we believe as a law firm and as a lawyer, if we believe our firm, that that person should be getting more because the injury is so severe, you can still, of course, converse with your client, but you can still hold off on actually filing it as an administrative claim and then file it as a lawsuit, because you do believe that they should be case by.

Liel: [00:06:10] Case, case.

Grace: [00:06:11] By case, case by case. They’re allowing that because, you know, cardiac birth defects in particular. It’s one of those injuries that happen in birth. So they could they may not have that injury until they get older. And a cardiac birth defect isn’t something like a heart attack or anything like that. It’s considered what you would almost be congenital, even though it’s not genetic, because it was created by this, you know, water at Camp Lejeune, so they don’t find out until they’re adults in some cases that they have this cardiac, you know, that they were in situ and they had this problem because they weren’t born yet. So how would they know? So those are they believe those will be closer to the 500, 550,000. And depending on how severe the injury is, those may not even go for the administrative claim. They may take them to the lawsuit point. So it’s you know, there’s a lot of little things to look at. But the reason I’m bringing in Camp Lejeune first is because, you know, MTP just happened, and a lot of people may or may not have seen Michael Watt’s presentation. Michael Watt’s presentation was very particular on calling out vendors and other marketing lead generation individuals, not, you know, those that run campaigns and things of that nature that are branded specifically with the firm. We’re talking about people that sell leads and we’re talking specifically. And he was talking specifically. Excuse me about coached leads. If you would have seen this presentation, Liel and I’ll share it with you. Um, you know, I don’t know if I’m allowed to share it outside of MTP. I believe we’re not. So I’m not able to share it with everybody here. But if you were at MTP and you had access to that presentation, you know exactly what I’m talking about. Um, it’s it’s very, um. And I normally don’t use, you know, quote unquote curse words, but it’s very damaging to the lead gen industry because it very specifically talks about people in India in Instagram and Snapchats and all kinds of messages with screenshots saying, do you sell and do you buy coached leads? Exactly those words.

Liel: [00:08:24] Okay, can we explain here what’s the term coach leads? Because I’m assuming some of our audience may have not ever heard about it.

Grace: [00:08:32] And 100% and this is. Yes. Thank you for saying that, Liel, because this is a an industry wide problem and it has been from the very beginning. A coach lead is a lead that has been told very specifically what to say, and even has gone as far as. Is being given the intake. The exact answers to provide, and even medical records that have been doctored to look like they have the injury when they don’t. And the only way you find this out is once you start pulling medical records that are quote unquote legitimate and nothing comes back. So we actually came across some of these where we heard the paper rustling on the phone, a gentleman stating he had ovarian cancer, and then immediately thereafter saying, no, no, no, I’m sorry, it was bladder cancer. So it is an industry wide problem, and I want everybody on here to be very aware of that. If you listen to this podcast, please be aware of who your partners are. Work with only people that are like Liel who will brand it for you. It’s your campaign. There is no gray area here. There’s nothing about buying leads and selling leads, coached leads or those lead gen companies that are like that. You need to know, right? You need to know who they come from. You need to know where those leads are coming from. You need to know what the copy looks like. I mean, it’s a serious problem, Liel. That’s why I kind of, I know went a little deep there, but yeah.

Liel: [00:10:03] No, no, you’re absolutely this is 100% worth our attention and definitely a very, very important topic to be discussed, particularly in a podcast where we oftentimes are talking about marketing of mass torts. And I think Grace, you know, also to help further familiarize those who are listening but are not necessarily familiar with the processes of dealing or buying leads. Right? So it usually works when you are buying leads to to certain to certain levels of vetting of the lead. Right. And it goes from as simple as just phone calls, right. Like we’ll make your phone ring, we’ll transfer it to you as and obviously the more narrow it gets, the more expensive the leads become. And so obviously just getting calls or just getting forms for many is not great because they’re they don’t know if if there’s legitimate if there is legitimacy there. And so they’re kind of like I’m not really interested in that. I want more vetting. So then they go for, okay, we’ll ask a first round series of questions. And only if all of those questions are answered within the parameters that the law firm establishes, then we’ll consider it a lead and transfer it to you. And now you start thinking, oh, that’s a great deal, right? Because then it is actually a good quality lead that stands a chance of us being able to sign up.

Liel: [00:11:42] But the thing is that then you still need to be able to contact the lead, or the lead goes cold, or the lead stops responding, or they just lose interest. And so there is not a 100% a guarantee that you’re going to be able to sign them up, right. There is still a chance that they will back up. Now, what happens with lead companies is that oftentimes at that point, they’ll still say, well, we did. You know, we did our job. We’re not we don’t have nothing to refund you for because we’re not selling you cases. Right. And they can shield behind that fact that selling cases would actually fall under what would be considered illegal right now. Then there is the retainer model, where the lead generation companies go as far as to sending them contracts from your firm on your behalf so that they’re locked down. And then there is really no, it’s black and white. Like we’ve actually signed up the lead for you, right? Like it’s done. Like there is no like, oh, but how am I going to get a hold of them? They never answered back and all of that thing.

Liel: [00:12:43] So that stuff now why what Grace is talking about here is so critical is because basically they’re signing up false leads. They’re basically getting up retainers on people that do not have cases. And then the problem is that then, you know, as the case advances, like months after the leads been paid for. Ale just doesn’t, you know, decays is no longer there because probably they’ll also fake some loss of interest or something, right? They’ll probably just go. Go. They’ll just disappear from the map. You’re not going to be able to do whatever comes next. And it’s very problematic because it may be too late for you to be able to do something right. You may decide, okay, I’m not going to buy from from from Leads, from or I’m not going to work with that agency anymore. But by that time, another 100 firms have already bought Leeds from or retainers from these lead generation companies. And so they’re not counting on your business. They don’t care if you’re going to buy from them again. And it’s very worrisome. Did I explain this in a way that kind of like illustrates Grace a little bit? What could have been the problem that was being pointed out in this presentation?

Grace: [00:14:09] Very much so. And, you know, it’s not just mass tort Leads. Right. It’s really any leads that you can purchase I mean motor vehicle accidents. So this really touches every industry, every law firm, every business. Honestly it’s not just legal that this happens to. There’s tons of other places. It just happens to be that legal is technically the most lucrative for these lead gen companies that are, you know, fly by night or wrong and just straight up illegal. They don’t care. A lot of them are not based in the US. They’re they’re not even here. So they don’t have anything that you can really go after them for. And once they’re done, they just close and then open up another company under another name. So yes, you explained it very, very correctly. And I think that hopefully it illustrates for everybody here that this is a systemic issue. So if you are going with any partner, you need to really review their background, who they are, look at their domains. And that’s something I think we’ve had a conversation quite a few times before early on, probably in our podcast, and not so much recently, but it’s becoming more and more a problem, you know, I mean, security in general is right. People are hacking. More and more people are getting into people’s emails. They’re, you know, so this is just a part of that systemic issue of fraud, right? So just pay attention really.

Liel: [00:15:32] And and let’s bring AI into into the conversation. Because how easy it is now, right, to be able to recreate statements and to really be able to articulate, you know, what is what would be suitable and what is actually legitimate or would be considered as legitimate when explaining or trying to recreate events or a case in a way that is untrue. But you can actually leverage AI to be able to really script down exactly what you want your fake leads to say when they’re calling, right? And so and I think, you know, without really profiling here, particular parts of the world as it’s all coming from there or such. But the point is these are activities that are very, very easily launched from anywhere. It’s not now confined to a territory because there’s the know how and there’s the understanding and they’re like, it’s very valid what you’re saying, the vetting. And really if you’re going to be doing lead generation, because let’s also be clear about the fact that lead generation is not bad is a good way of diversification for many firms. But because we also focus a lot here about kind of like what’s what’s the baseline, right? What’s what’s your most important moves and how you should prioritize things. The way that I would say it. And going back a little bit to what you’ve mentioned, Grace, that brand yourself and make sure that you are owning your campaigns and such. The way that I would put it, try to kind of make more sense of this idea is that you can make money with lead generation companies, but you cannot win with lead generation companies, if that makes sense.

Liel: [00:17:29] Right? You you can certainly run your law firm profitably with lead generation companies, but you cannot win on the long term because you’re basically not having a business because you’re relying on them. So if they stop delivering, if they go out of business, if they found a better client that they want to support more than your firm, you are suffering and it’s out of your control. So that’s the reason why I think it’s a very unhealthy. Very unhealthy approach. Leave alone just to run your entire firm under the model of. Lead generation, but. For an entire segment or client base in your business to be reliant on lead generation, and that is mass torts, and that is the Hispanic market, and that is anything else for which you are not actually marketing your brand. And I get it that doing mass torts as a one consolidate, like as a single, um, law firm is not for everyone because you need to be able to do this at scale. But I think there are better solutions. I think there are better joint or like joint advertising groups where you are as a firm, more in control of what you’re doing. And that is why I would go for something like that. We have the Lake law firm here, right? Persist. Who does this right. Brunton partners like these are organizations that are well vetted in the industry, and they actually care a lot about their partner firms in the process of that. So not everyone is a bad guy.

Grace: [00:19:25] But yeah, I mean, it’s something that we and in particular, you know, he’s been in this 30 plus years. So for us it’s a matter of teaching. If you want to get into mass torts we want you to understand it. We don’t want you to just go into it without the understanding, even if you don’t want to open up that part of your practice, that’s okay. That’s what we’re here for. Right? As the Lake law firm being in it for 30 plus years. We know what it takes. We understand how you’re supposed to brand yourself. And if you want to open that side of your practice, that’s exactly what we’re here for, is to help you, to help you create that part of your practice, to diversify your portfolio of cases so that you can expand into other areas. But with always the concept of branding, right, because you do not want them to win others to win the lead gen companies are the ones winning, not you. When you don’t put your brand out there, you’re spending money on something that’s never going to give you as a firm, as your company, the view into the leads. So the leads come in and a general brand under someone else’s brand. So you’re paying for someone else to increase their brand awareness. Why would you do that? So to your point, Liel, exactly. I agree completely. And I think that people just need to be very aware of. All of the aspects that go into lead gen, including branding. Branding has to be the top component, otherwise you will never win like you said.

Liel: [00:20:54] Yeah, yeah. And if you look at that, Grace, I mean firms that in addition of doing, you know, their their single event business that have built strong brands in their markets, they tend to do very well on the mass torts side of things. And that’s the reality of it. Why? Because they’re already trusted, known. And so when they actually start speaking about an emerging mass tort or a class action, people start paying attention to them and they already feel that, okay, if I were to be in that position, I’m going to call them rather than whatever is showing up on TV on that, you know, text only ad that last a whole minute, that has a disclaimer as long as pharmaceutical company. Right, that I’ve never heard of before and the website is claims for the injured.com. Right. So this is not going to win against those other players in the market that I advertising for the same type of mass tort, but are just better known and better positioned. So that you know, is something also to keep in mind. Now Grace. What else has happened in the mass tort world? Because as you just said, you know, mass tort made perfect.

Liel: [00:22:21] Just happened last week in Vegas. Did they did they anything else? Any new mass tort? Any new major move? I’m not saying that the Camp Lejeune is not huge. I mean, it’s it’s tremendous because obviously that. Almost brings these mass tort to resolution, which is a extremely fast, extremely fast for a mass tort. Obviously those that are going to go for for litigations going to be a whole other story. But as you kind of like alluded, the majority of them are likely to just, you know, take the take this. Yeah, take the fast track. So what what else was there anything else with any other of the existing ones on such. I’ll tell you something. And I was not a mass tort. It’s made perfect. But over the past few weeks, I’ve been getting a lot of inquiries about some undisclosed construction related stuff. Right? Materials, powders, but things that are actually related to the construction world. So is that have you heard anything about that? Is it just a coincidence? Um.

Grace: [00:23:35] Not really. I mean, what I can think of that you’re talking about would be the construction materials, kind of like the asbestos claims, you know, in a way where it’s just the materials that weren’t disclosed at the time that they were using them to construct a building or something like that, especially a commercial building at high usage. That’s what it sounds like to me. And yeah, vaguely heard something about it, but not as much as I’ve heard about Medical Device in particular that I’ve really kind of want to talk about. Um, because I like medical devices personally as a, as a lawsuit because of the type of lawsuit it is. So what I’m talking about is barred power port. So I’m sure you’ve heard some things about barred. And it’s a fairly new litigation. The MDL was formed fairly recently. And so barred power port has 80% of the market, 80% of the market in power ports. What it is is, is this device that can is literally embedded in the body of a chemo patient. So it’s usually cancer patients that need a constant chemo injection. And so this port allows the nurses to take a needle and fast track the chemo session so that they can go in and out in less than an hour versus hours and hours of intravenous slow drip chemo. So the barred power port is this little like triangular device that has like three nodes in most cases. Some are a little different, but most of them have these three nodes on the outside that you can actually palpate, meaning touch the skin of the individual that has it imported or implanted. Excuse me, in them. And you know, it’s a barred power port.

Grace: [00:25:25] Not only that, but every barred power port client gets an ID card with the lot number of their barred implant. They get a bracelet. And all of these things are to help the nurse know. The moment that the client walks in or the patient walks into the hospital, that they are barred. Power port user and the nurses love this because it makes it super easy for them to help the patient quickly, and they can then move on to more patients to assist them. Now what’s the injury? What’s the problem? So the problem is the outside of the catheter is just this string that’s basically going into your heart. Um, the outside of it was made with barium and, um, basically coated with an item that degrades over time. And they knew that, you know, according to the memos, according to the so it’s under both a manufacturing defect and a product liability situation because it falls apart and the grades in the body fractures and migrates. So you can imagine what that’s doing to chemo cancer patients. It’s causing sepsis. It’s causing heart attacks even death. It’s pretty pretty bad what’s happening to these poor patients. And again, 70% of the market is owned by Bard. So they knew this. They knew what was going on. They allegedly knew what was going on. They allegedly knew this and that. There’s a lot of documentation kind of coming out that they if they would have just basically. I forget the term that they use, but basically keep the catheter separated from the barium. They could have done something that coated it and would have kept this from happening.

Liel: [00:27:15] Where are we standing with this? Have they have? Is it been recalled? Is it just still out there? They’ve not admitted to any wrongdoing yet.

Grace: [00:27:25] No admissions yet? I haven’t seen any recalls yet. It’s still very, very new. But I think the more that the awareness is becoming out there for these specific patients, I think that that will start to hopefully be recalled, because that’s kind of this is something implanted in a chemo patient in a cancer patient’s body. So it’s not that easy to even get out, you know, it’s it’s and especially if it’s fractured and it becomes embedded. How do they remove this from from a cancer patient’s body when they’re already in a specific spot in their body? You know, they their immune systems can’t fight back. So it’s, you know, it’s it’s a pretty severe situation. And that’s why I say I like medical devices, because it’s an easier thing to prove when it comes to our claimants and our patients, you know, our clients. And it makes it easier for us to say this happened. So this happened because of this device. Yeah.

Liel: [00:28:28] Similar to, you know, what has made hernia mesh such a reliable type of thought. Right. It’s kind of like, you know.

Grace: [00:28:37] It’s it’s actually closer to IVC because hernia mesh hernia mesh was a little bit odd in that you could have had a recurrence of your hernia, which was then not considered a defect in the mesh. So there was a lot of weird stuff with the hernia meshes, and a lot of people had a problem finding their PID. You know, the product ID label that was on the OP reports for them, what that were installed, especially if it was like one of their first or second hernias. And it was over seven years ago. It got a little difficult to locate the product ID to know exactly which mesh it was, because some people didn’t even know if they had, you know, this mesh or that kind of mesh, much less, you know, that this mesh was implanted the first time, but this mesh was implanted the second time, and the first one wasn’t a defect, it was a recurrence. The second one was a defect, not a recurrence. So it was it was very specific with hernia, unfortunately, whereas IVC, it fractured, it fell apart. You knew kind of like baad, it fractured, it fell apart and you knew it was a bard power port. There’s I think like 2 or 3 others that have the other percent of the market, but it is mainly a power port that you find out there. And you know immediately because of the ID cards that they’re given.

Liel: [00:29:55] And so was this one of those things that it’s been talked about? Is it still not really made the. Conference panels.

Grace: [00:30:07] I think you know.

Liel: [00:30:08] How new is this?

Grace: [00:30:09] Yeah, it’s it’s not super, super new. It is still kind of new. It’s newer than. Well, I guess I’d say it’s a little newer than the chemical hair relaxer stuff going on. Yeah. So it is newer than that, but it’s not. People are talking about it because it is a medical device. So there’s a lot of proof of use and proof of injury that’s making it easy for people. But I don’t think there’s enough people that know about it. So the campaigns and things we’ve been running have been very slow to generate. You know, clients because I don’t think they know so much about it yet.

Liel: [00:30:45] No, that’s actually very interesting, Grace. And. Sure. First time we’ve actually mentioned it here. So obviously something interesting is going to be interesting to see how does this develop and whether it starts generating or getting more traction over the next few months. That’s wonderful Grace. Then what do we have for the next few months? I mean, in terms of like, we’re getting close to the end of the year and probably in our next conversation, we should be talking a little bit more about, you know, analyzing results for this current year, setting up strategies for the next year. I think a lot has changed. A lot has changed in the marketing world. And in some ways it’s better. And I would even argue more simple. In some others, things may get a little bit more elaborate. I wouldn’t say complex, but just more elaborate, I think. I think some, some additional efforts are needed to to stand out. So I think that’s going to be something interesting to to delve into in the next in our, in our next conversation. But one thing I think, I don’t know, Grace, maybe it’s just my levels of awareness just increasing, but it almost feels like every week there is now like 2 or 3 conferences happening simultaneously about something, somewhere like it feels like there’s been a lot of smaller new groups just coming out of nowhere doing their own gatherings, their own conferences, you know, and not that to the local state bars and trial lawyers associations and obviously the bigger and better established conferences. But I’m just, you know, before it used to be will you be at, you know, next week conference. And now it’s kind of like which conference, which one of them. Because there’s five. Right. It’s it’s kind of like that. So anything Ward um bringing up about from here until the end of the year.

Grace: [00:32:52] Yeah, definitely. I’m glad that you brought that up at the, you know, towards the end of our podcast, because that’s exactly what I was going to say. I’m going to be speaking as a panel moderator at the Business of Law in Scottsdale. I heard that it’s actually pretty sold out. The room blocks are that they even had to go into overflow. So there’s going to be quite a bit of people. For those of you that don’t know about the business of law, it is a smaller conference that’s done by National Trial Lawyers Association. Most of you are used to the Miami in January, February. Usually this is a smaller kind of specific to the business of law. And I personally really enjoy this conference because I get to meet, you know, some of the people that I see, all, you know, in most of these conferences, but also get to meet a lot of new people that are truly interested in running their business, right, as a law firm. So everybody goes there with that in mind, and you meet the biggest players, the best players in there. And, you know, not to toot my own horn, but that includes me.

Grace: [00:33:56] So I will be the panel moderator on IRC, unveiling hidden tax opportunities at 2 p.m. on November 10th. So it’s from November 8th, technically the ninth, but November 8th through the 11th, that’s Saturday. And it’s going to you know, they have a couple of golf events. You know, a golf tourney the first day. Mike Morse has his kind of famous party at his house. For those of you that have scheduled yourself early enough, you’re invited with him. And then of course, the sessions and sessions and sessions after that that are pretty packed with really great information. And every time I’ve gone, I’ve learned at least something when I’ve been there, which, you know, for me, that’s usually not the easiest thing, because it’s not that I know everything, but I usually know most of the stuff that they’re talking about in these presentations. And I get to kind of learn something new every time I go. So for me, it’s always been a one of the ones I like to go to, and especially now that I’m I was invited as a moderator, I’m certainly going to be there. So hopefully you guys can all meet me there.

Liel: [00:35:01] Yeah, that’s actually interesting. So which day are you going to be speaking, Grace? How many days is the conference?

Grace: [00:35:07] It’s November 8th through the 11th. I’m speaking on November 10th at 2 p.m.. Mountain time.

Liel: [00:35:13] Eight, nine, ten, 11, four days of conference.

Grace: [00:35:17] Yeah, it really starts the ninth. Like the eighth is more like a, you know, you arrive, set up that kind of stuff. Yeah, welcome.

Liel: [00:35:23] Reception sort of thing. Yeah. And then they have kind of like a golf tournament going on and then really two days of of tracks, of business, of law. Right, right. And I also I’ve seen the agenda and it all looks like it also breaks down in a, in a, in a way that makes a lot of sense. Like one day is dedicated more kind of like. Business matters, right? Finance, HR, efficiency models, that sort of thing. And then number two is a little bit more leaning towards marketing, advertising, community outreach, that sort of thing. So that’s actually very oh and I believe probably intake. Yeah falls on that second day. But I may be wrong but yeah very well rounded actually. I think it’s nice and I think it’s you know, I think it’s a good move that they’ve set up an event aside for that because I do see a lot of people a little bit conflicted in national trial lawyers at the bigger Miami event, when it comes down to the business of law track, because, you know, the bigger events have to do with, with, with trial stuff, right? It’s not the business of law. And so people may be interested in the business of law thing, but not enough not to attend the other, you know, bigger presentations happening with regards to trials. So it’s kind of like they have to compromise one to go to the other. Whereas here, because it’s all about business of law, it’s a good way to give them that opportunity.

Liel: [00:37:05] And and you know, granted there is nowadays, especially just as we were mentioning a million conferences that you can go to that are about running your firm efficiently and learning how to market for your firm or things around that nature. I think what business of law really does very nicely is that it brings together a lot of very important players in the coaching space of how to do things, and gives you an opportunity of kind of like get the best of a lot of different thought leaders without having to go to ten different conferences. So that’s what it is. I’ll be seeing you there. I’m not going to be at the entire conference, but I’ll sure be there for yours. So your presentation. So that’s going to be a lot of fun. So by the looks of this, we’re actually going to be meeting in person before we get to record another episode of this. But we’ll make sure that soon after that we’re back here with more things to talk about, helping you get ready for your end of the year activities, and then, you know, just bear with us a little bit. Thank you so much for your patience. Thank you for still playing this podcast, which probably hasn’t had a lot of updates over the past few weeks, but we’re glad to be back and we hope to get to hear from you as well. So great. Thanks again and we’ll be back soon. Right?

Grace: [00:38:30] We’ll be back soon for sure. Thank you. Liel.

Liel: [00:38:38] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers. Leave us a review and.

Liel: [00:38:44] Send us your questions at: ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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