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S4 E19: Formula (to) Disaster


ICP Logo

S4 E19: Formula (to) Disaster





Mass Torts acquire their standing because they affect thousands of people. Despite this, the extent of public awareness for typical mass torts is depressingly low, owing to the fact that they do not attract significant media interest in addition to the corporate responses made towards them. However, every now and then, a Mass Tort will attract enough attention to go viral, as we witnessed this year.

You’ve undoubtedly heard about the severe baby formula shortage across the country if you haven’t been entirely off the grid for a month. The news has attracted worldwide attention as people try to figure out how the world’s richest country could mishandle things so badly. In this episode, we explore why your law firm should be the one to answer this question for your community.

In this podcast, we go through how the closure of one plant in Michigan has destabilized the baby formula supply chain throughout the country, why it happened, and what could have been done better to prevent it. We also discuss how product liability law firms are the greatest carriers of this message and where they should be joining the conversation.

Resources mentioned in our episode:

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

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Liel: [00:00:00] For decades, the US baby formula industry has been dominated by a few producers that have benefited from a lack of real competition and regulations created to protect them. But for how much longer will things remain this way? I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and author of Beyond Se Habla Español How Lawyers Win the Hispanic Market. And This is In-camera podcast where we think more product liability lawyers should be on line talking about this. Welcome to in-camera podcast private legal marketing conversation, Grace. Welcome back. How are you this week?

Grace: [00:01:01] Good. How are you, Liel?

Liel: [00:01:03] Very good. Very good. Grace. Thank you very much for asking. We have a very interesting conversation to get into, which is trying to make sense a little bit about what’s happening with the formula crisis across the country, which is shocking. Alarming is upsetting. Right. And also make the correlation because pretty much it’s very direct in terms to what’s happening with the baby formula. MasMass torts. But before we get into that, you were talking about some automations that you’re experimenting with and you know that we are here very much geeks of automation. So please let us know a little bit what you’re experimenting with.

Grace: [00:01:43] So, you know, we work with a lot as the lake law firm. We work with a lot of vendors, a lot of different systems. And our current our own CRM actually is Zoho CRM, which has this what’s called an open API. It uses rest API, which is kind of a standard for anybody that deals with development. So it’s a very easy system to talk to and get data back in and out of. So I was working on trying to make the entire process automated, including a true cost per case, and that’s including overhead cost per lead, how much it takes in time, right, and the time cost. So I basically have created attributes for all the different potential costs that you get incurred. Right, like call center, if it’s a lead or this or that. And then I’m putting in what they call time frame allotments to tell me if the time is variable as part of that equation or formula. Yeah, it’ll let me know. Okay. This person costs more money technically in time, even though they may have fulfilled the amount that you need. So. Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, basically what I’m talking about is just a true cost per case.

Liel: [00:02:59] Yeah, absolutely. That’s so good Grace. So, so good. It’s a model that obviously it’s kind of like the dream for all businesses to understand very well what projects are costing more resources, what clients are costing more resources, what employees are performing better, what employees are producing less. Right. And it all comes down to being able to to measure things. And it sounds like you’re trying to automate a lot of the process ultimately. I mean, of course you need to this needs to be based in data. And the more you have different platforms talking with each other, the better and more accurate your formula and results going to be. So that sounds like a lot of work, but definitely one that is worth putting yourself through. That’s really good. That’s very that’s really great. Grace. So, Grace, as I was saying, we’ve talked about baby formula, I think, more than any other mass tort that we’ve ever covered in this podcast over a period of time. This is probably the third conversation we have that touches on baby formula over the past four or five weeks. So why is that and why is this mass tort going so mainstream?

Grace: [00:04:19] So yeah, let’s start from the beginning, right? The moment that baby formula came out, I was having an issue. Obviously, that’s a huge deal to everybody because not a lot of people. However it sounds, however it is that you believe you should feed your baby, it doesn’t really matter ultimately if you have to feed your baby, right? So whether you believe you should be breastfeeding or formula feeding, it’s irrelevant if you can’t. So baby formula is a necessity because that’s one of the few things that a baby can eat, right? It’s going to be mother’s milk or baby formula. So it’s not like they have a choice as to a third option out there. There really isn’t a third option. It kind of is. It’s called prolactin, which is a kind of made with human milk. So there is that option, but it’s extremely expensive. So, you know, not an option. So it’s not really an option, right? I mean, if you can’t afford to feed your baby with all the costs that have gone up, all the pricing has gone up, I can’t even start there. Right? I mean, just the cost of diesel for trucks to transport the items is become an increased cost. But that’s not the real reason that we’re talking about it here. We’re talking about it because of the recall. So first, it started with the fact that the Enfamil and Similac was alleged to cause in preemie babies, premature babies. That’s 37 weeks and under. Potentially cause them necrotizing enterocolitis. It started there. They were finding that there was an increased or alleged increased chance of babies that are born premature to develop this basically rotting gut situation from baby formula. So you can imagine right from there it started, then it came out from the Abbott Laboratories. They put out a recall because they had a lot of multiple lots of this baby formula, Similac specifically that they recalled because it was infected or rather not infected, but tainted with chrono factor bacteria, which is bacteria that could potentially kill your baby.

Liel: [00:06:43] Yeah.

Grace: [00:06:44] So with that being said, you can imagine how much the supply has continued to dwindle. Yeah, it’s not that easy to make formula.

Liel: [00:06:54] No, you know, it’s not Grace. It’s not. And so here it’s. You know. It’s a little bit interesting, right? I’m marketing view here or messaging view here. I know you you’re talking a lot here about the issue behind the mass tort. What is leading us to this? What I’m seeing, what I’m getting from what is being talked about in the news is that. There’s just a handful of companies here in the United States that supply formula for the entire country. And there is one in particular that carries more than two thirds of that weight, and that is Abbott Labs. Now, Abbott Labs in February shut down a plant in Michigan. Because of what you’ve just said now, because there were cases who took some of the formula produced at this plant and got infected with a bacteria. You probably know the name of the bacteria. And two of them died. Two of them died. And so the plant had to be closed. But that’s where it starts getting for me. Tricky because it says that the FDA carried out research inside a plant and they found traces of the bacteria. But the vocabulary that they used in the media does not say that the FDA shut down the plant. It almost kind of like sounds like Abbott decided to shut to do the recall and then to shut down the plant. But here is the mind-blowing thing, Grace, is that it’s not like, you know, for most of us, we think, you know, they shut down one plant.

Liel: [00:08:40] How bad can that be? How how terrible can that be? In this case, catastrophic, because this plant produces a significant amount of the formula that is gets shipped out to the entire country. And so it is devastating. And this could have been anticipated from the moment the decision was taken to shut down that plant. Now, was shutting down the plant the right thing to do? It looks like, yes. I mean, they were actually releasing out to the market a harmful formula that potentially has already killed babies. And that’s terrible. But what’s extremely upsetting here is like, how did we end up here in this place where the entire supply chain of baby formula for the United States, the richest country in the world, is relying on one plant in Michigan and could be so disrupted by that. Sure, sure. I don’t want to take away from other supply chain issues that are happening globally and that have also affected the formula market. But it is very clear that what’s been really disruptive is a shutdown of this plant. And here is the other thing, Grace, that I’ve learned while researching a little bit more about this whole baby formula thing. And that is that. How it works is that these suppliers of baby formula, like the big formula suppliers here in the United States, that, as we’ve said, there is three or four of them. Right. Go about creating particular partnerships with states to provide them with formula for their program that is called D, y, c, which is for low income families that need access to formula.

Liel: [00:10:33] And so it’s kind of like a government supported initiative that gets them access to it. Right. And in exchange, obviously, the suppliers get tremendous benefits, right? Whether those come in market share taxes and whatnot. And so what happens now is that Abbott has also two thirds of those programs under their belt. And because of this disruption, the people who are subscribed to this program, they cannot access the formula. They can’t. And so right now, obviously, the federal government is trying to do everything they can in their power to try to get other types of formula to be accepted inside this program, disregarding on what the agreement says it’s trying to in action, the act in which they allow for basically the same thing that they did with COVID 19, back with the masks, like all of that is being put into place, but it’s too little, too late again. And I just think from the consumer standpoint, I can understand the anger, right? Because you do not just shut down a plant and then think that everything is going to be fine. It’s upsetting that that decision had to be made that way. And, in fact, that right now families are being put in a situation where you’re hearing of cases where where mothers are starting to dilute formula and as a result, hurting their babies, because that’s not good.

Liel: [00:12:06] And trying to come up with homemade recipes for formula substitutions. And it’s just terrible. I mean, a lot of people are going to potentially get injured because of this. And so can this deliberate action of. Creating such a vulnerable market for baby formula creates some some accountability on someone because it’s now no longer the defective formula that was being produced before. And now it’s also just the recklessness in making these decisions of closing down plants without necessarily having had other plans to offset the deficit that were going to be in Formula two months down the road. And so here’s the thing. They’re reopening the plant. Grace They just this week they signed up an agreement to reopen the plant. Of course, of course, with potentially with a whole new operation model, where there’s going to be a new team coming in to run operations to make sure that that all products are getting tested and everything is up to par and, you know, taking a lot of precautions. But why wasn’t that done on day number two when they closed down the factory? Why why did they have to wait for these to reach this point? Right. So that’s one thing, right? It’s the response time that’s so upsetting. So upsetting. But then on the other hand, you have all of these other information that’s coming to light about the way Abbott. Right. Has been buying back stocks. Like if there was no tomorrow over the past three or four years on their own stock, like $8 billion on their own stock.

Liel: [00:13:50] And and then you think, well, why was there so much money being put back into into your stock rather than in upgrading your plants to make sure that they are meeting up with all health and safety standards and not a harmful bacteria is being found in your product. Right. It’s just questions that you cannot avoid not to ask because it’s just so much in your face. Like it’s ridiculous if you if you look at their their earnings reports, like how much pride they take on the fact that they have been increasing on their dividend payout for over a year. I mean, it’s just ridiculous. Like, I mean, the whole thing reads like a joke. And and here’s the thing that is even more upsetting is that when you look at their stock, how it’s been performing, it hasn’t really been hit badly. You know, like very, very, very small losses that tend to balance out after a few days, like considering what’s happening in the tech market, for instance, where, you know, they have companies like Netflix that are just losing a third of their wars in a week, but these guys are still holding on well and they’re not really facing the real consequences. That’s the thing. And it leads you almost like to think was was I was thinking, all right, you want to penalize me because of my.

Grace: [00:15:17] Bacteria.

Liel: [00:15:18] These types, bacterial anecdotes. All right, let’s shut down this plant and see what happens. You’re going to be in trouble. You’re going to your government is going to be in trouble. I’m going to be fine. I may get I may lose a little bit on the stock market, but I’m going to bounce back right out of it without any issues. Not just that, but my plants going to be back up and running under your instructions because you’re going to come and ask for it.

Grace: [00:15:44] So this is unfortunately what happens when it becomes essentially a sanctioned monopoly, you know, and there’s not a whole lot of people that create these products. Right. And so you get stuck with and it’s not a monopoly. Right. Because we know hopefully everybody knows what the difference between a monopoly and an oligarchy and all these different options that there are for businesses. And we have antitrust laws right in place that are supposed to.

Liel: [00:16:11] But honestly, this feels like an oligarchy. This this one here feels like an oligarchy that’s been blessed by sections of the government that have allowed these people to get away with whatever they want.

Grace: [00:16:24] It’s government sanctioned monopoly. That’s what energy is. That’s what your Internet usually is in your area. So it’s a finite amount of resources to create a product or provide a service to a group of people. That’s why here in Florida, FPL is the only energy source you can have. Unless you have propane or you put in your own type of energy source. That’s the only way you can be off of the government sanctioned monopoly of energy. That’s what’s happened here. They are the only ones producing formula. They give the formula to the hospitals. The hospitals in turn sell the formula to the mothers. Nobody has a choice. They have to feed their baby. So. I am not here to point fingers or claim anything. We are just here to have a conversation about what’s happening and to basically explore all of the situations that have led to this point and all of the factors that we’re talking about here supply chain situation, gas prices, recalls. And it all kind of goes back to the fact that they’re the only ones that can produce this product. So when there’s a supply chain disruption. No more baby formula. And that’s awful. There’s mothers with children who are diluting formula. And this is something that has got to be fixed. And I honestly, I don’t know the answer.

Liel: [00:17:59] There is no easy answers in here. But my where my mind is going is like, can this just go to a whole new level? Can this look at not just the lack of health and safety standards at a plant that caused for harmful products to be created? But just as lack of corporate responsibility in actually conducting business in a way that kept people safe. Right. I mean, this is this is extremely reckless. The fact that a plant just got shut down, leaving the supply chain in such a fragile point and affecting so many people in a cascading way and specifically low income people. Right. I mean, this is there is has to be some accountability in there. This was preventable. This should not have ended that way. And I’m not trying to say that that plant should not have been shut down for sure. Corrective action had to be taken in there. But it sounds like they just abruptly make some decisions in there without necessarily thinking of the consequences that that was going to lead to. And I think it’s terrible now. Grace But but what I think it’s a very big missed opportunity here to hear and at least I’ve not yet seen enough of that. I have not yet seen enough law firms coming out and making the connection between what’s happening in the baby formula market and the actual mass tort itself. And beyond that also kind of like explaining better to the people what is not being said in the news, which is really that there is companies here that they’re really watching after their own interest and they are pretty much or in some ways acting responsibly, recklessly. And this could have all been preventable and such.

Liel: [00:20:05] And I think it goes back to the idea that particularly consumer protection, personal injury is very reactive, very, very reactive. They you know, something happens, something seems to be becoming a case. Then people go and start a marketing and creating the message around that. There is not a lot of effort being put around generating awareness about why are these things happening, how, you know, what’s the backstory of baby formula that now obviously has impacted people in catastrophic ways? But there is also a lot of people that they’re not they’re not eligible to a lawsuit yet. This is impacting their lives. And in knowing and being better informed about this is going to definitely help them have a clearer idea of this. I think this is a topic of interest. I think this is the kind of things that law firms should be talking about on their Facebook videos. They should be creating YouTube explainers on on exactly an analysis of what’s happening here. Town hall is not just focusing on the same old bland message that if you’re your baby have consumed this and that formula and you’ve been covered the entire topic cover the entire topic. And the thing there, Grace, is that that’s the type of market, that’s the type of marketing that’s going to get you mainstream attention. That’s the type of marketing that’s going to help you build a brand. That’s the type of marketing that’s going to make you authoritative when it comes down to talking about this topic and eventually lead you to the people who also have those other bigger problems, do you see things that way?

Grace: [00:21:48] I do. You know, I believe that that is really that’s the job of an attorney, is to help communicate to their community what’s happening, especially something of this level. I think that there should be town hall meetings where we’re actually trying to become a part of. I know that we’re talking specifically about the baby formula here, but there’s things that affect the community and on a grand scale and whenever something affects the community on a grand scale, we try to get involved, particularly because we have relationships with law firms across the United States. Right. And so what I’m talking about here actually is the wildfires happening in New Mexico. We are trying to go to a town hall meeting and it was canceled because the fires were going right up into the place that the town hall meeting was going to be. So we are pushing for a town hall meeting in Santa Fe right now. To help address the community and tell them this is what’s going on. These are the things that we know about it. And we are here as a law firm to help you figure out. What happened and how you should be compensated, because this is something that was preventable. So we we are finding out some more information, obviously, and you should always use the communication about alleged and potentially and those types of words because you don’t know. Right, until you go in depth and you find more information, the science comes out and whatever it might be. So speaking of that and speaking of this, you should have town hall meetings, community meetings in the affected areas, which is everybody anybody with a child is being affected. And particularly, like Liel said, low income communities, minorities, I’m Hispanic, you know, and as a Hispanic female, you know, they have no other recourse. What is she is he he or she wants to do to feed their baby?

Liel: [00:23:44] Yeah, playing. I mean, you know, it’s just upsetting when you’re just hearing people making the argument of breast milk. That’s so stupid of an argument, right, Grace? I mean, you know, first of all, not everyone is in place of that. There’s a lot of reasons that breast feeding may not be an option for women. And the second thing is here, if you’re low income, chances are you’re going to have to rush back to work after you’ve been after you deliver a baby. And the reality is that if you’re low income, you’re probably also not working at a place that has great maternity facilities that allow for milk pumping or milk expressing. And so it’s just so out of touch just to even go there.

Grace: [00:24:23] And it is but it’s important and I’m glad you mentioned it, because it is an important factor that a lot of people may consider this not such a big deal if you breastfeed your baby and milk feed human milk, feed your baby. That is not the question here. And that’s not even a topic of discussion. And it shouldn’t be. But so I’m glad you brought it up, though, because it is a topic as part of the conversation and it really it should not be. That is not what we’re talking about here.

Liel: [00:24:50] And the thing here is that what you’re saying, like getting face to face to town hall meetings. Amazing. Amazing. Totally, totally great. But 100%, you know, you can get to TikTok and create 15/2 videos explaining why this whole thing is messed up and why it could have been preventable. And people care about these things. These are trending topics. These are topics that are of interest to people. Right? So don’t just dissect the part that actually relates and deals with the cases that you’re very, very, very interested in. Cover a bigger range of the topic. Build a bigger community and eventually it will trickle down to put you in front of those who are also in need of that very, very particular type of case or situation. I just think Grace that lawyers, law firms being absent of this main mainstream conversation that’s happening is a huge waste opportunity because there are very few, really very, very few mass torts that get this level of attention. And even though it’s not directly on the mass tort, because this is kind of like the mass tort, the cause of the mass tort is kind of like just the last drop of water that trickled this whole reaction.

Liel: [00:26:11] And so that’s where and that’s also where there is a very, very, very little awareness. Like people are aware that there is supply chain issues with baby formula. But what people are hearing in many outlets is that this is a result of the federal government sending formula to the border, to undocumented people, instead of actually talking about the fact that a plant had to be shut down in Michigan because of lack of health and safety standards that led to the potential death of two babies. And then everything that happened after that, that led us to this point and all of the different things that could have been that could have done that could have been preventable. Right. All of the different laws that were broken. Right. And all of the different courses of actions that can be taken. That’s where your lawyers you have these sensors, you this this analysis. I mean Grace, there is there is lawyers that do or videos on YouTube or in to talk about the Batman movie, about all of the different laws that Batman broke. That’s awesome. That’s super entertaining. This is also very relevant. This is also a great topic to dissect.

Grace: [00:27:30] There’s actually a term, you know, they use it, they call news jacking. You know, you take the information and what’s happening right now and you give your own view on it. People are dying for information, literally and figuratively. People need information about what’s going on.

Liel: [00:27:46] Yeah. And from someone who’s looking at it from the consumer standpoint. Right, and from someone who’s also not affiliated to a news outlet. And I’m not and I’m not saying and I’m not I have nothing against news outlets and particularly not journalism. There is a really, really great reporters out there that are actually talking and doing the reporting of of this. But the bottom line is that there is there is also the side of lawyers portraying the same as community protectors. Well, this is your opportunity as well, to to show that side of you and give information to your community for them to be better oriented and better and better aware of what’s happening, what’s the causes that have led us to this point. So. Grace What updates have there been in the progression of this? Mass tort.

Grace: [00:28:38] There’s actually you know, there’s a little bit. It’s more minute updates because of the supply chain issue. So I think people are more focusing on trying to get the information out there, the fact that this is continuing to happen and why? Less about the litigation specifically. I’m saying it like that because there is still the the NBC one versus the recall one. It’s two different torts. So we have to kind of start there. One is talking about premature babies and how it affects them. And then the other one is the Similac recall and that specific lot that and how it affected those babies. And those don’t have to be premature babies. So we’re actually talking about two completely different mass tort that are following their own tort path. Right. So every mass tort follows its our own its own path to the end, right? The first step is always going to be research and they have science days and they try to figure out if this is basically supposed to move to the next step. And that next step is always going to be the Daubert or Frye standard has to be met. That is simple, simple, simple. All it means is, can they potentially link what happened to the injury? So in this case, can they truly, based on true science and law, can they potentially actually link the fact that Similac was recalled and that there was Chrono Bacteria bacteria and that it hurt these babies? If they have. Beyond the burden of proof that that can move forward. That’s when it becomes a true, quote unquote, mass tort. So they’re moving towards that standard that. Trial, that request and that request for information. So they’re going to get there soon. And I believe because of everything that’s happening, this could be even a takeaway maybe. But I believe because of everything that’s happening, this is going to move a heck of a lot faster than a normal mass tort. Because of who it’s affecting babies.

Liel: [00:30:55] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The most vulnerable of all human beings. To try and protect them on the worst possible. It’s terrible. Grace.

Grace: [00:31:05] Yes, it.

Liel: [00:31:06] Is. And it’s not just the most vulnerable. It’s also the most vulnerable within that demographic group.

Grace: [00:31:13] Most vulnerable demographic within the most vulnerable get demographic.

Liel: [00:31:17] And Grace. And here’s a here’s the thing also I did found a video, an explainer video from a lawyer called James Newman. He’s apparently based out of New York. So, I mean, there are there are lawyers that are seeing the need of actually taking this information, these topics, these matters that are happening and explaining them. And so what I think is that you should definitely look at the opportunity of becoming that that figure or that authority in your local market, right? That phase where people know for consumer matters, for criminal matters, for injury matters, there is there is a voice there that is reasoning and looking at things from the same point of view that that that a normal person does. And I and I think that is the type of content that is missing out there. I think we’ve put up a lot of focus in creating it informs like blog posts, which is good, it’s great, it works. But I think video is probably the most powerful way of communicating and creating this type of messaging and distribute it. Because with platforms, particularly things like TikTok nowadays, you can really create very powerful messages that are short, are effective and are informative. But there’s also kind of like the YouTube more longer version option, which whichever fits well for you. But the bottom line is that particularly the YouTube wants people who are searching these, they’ll find them like this video that I found, the one, and I’m telling you, has over 7000 views. The more content you’re doing, the more the more visibility you’re going to have, the more consistent you are, the better the algorithm is going to register you. So I think, Grace, you know, we took a conversation here that went from commentary on a situation that’s happening right now to some good and actionable marketing insights. So why don’t we bring it down to three takeaways?

Grace: [00:33:24] Yeah, I do want to mention one more thing. I was actually just doing a very quick search because this is such a hot topic. I knew there had to be something that I was missing in terms of an update that I might not have seen today. And as a matter of fact, there’s been a couple updates in in May not law specific, but it’s actually information and studies to your point because of what’s happening. Right. And remember, I said science has to happen first before you can move to the next. So it looks like they did approve the next one to move forward for an MDL now on May 16th, the FDA has issued a powdered infant formula. Recall what you need to know. Don’t use the recalled Similac and aluminum powdered infant formulas made in Sturgis, Michigan. That is the title.

Liel: [00:34:14] That’s the plant that got closed.

Grace: [00:34:17] So the FDA issued their own very specific document telling clients and people and everybody, do not use this. That was on May 16th, just four days ago. Yeah. So this is just going to keep happening, right?

Liel: [00:34:33] Well, all of that should have already been recalled anyhow because that’s supposedly what what Abbott did.

Grace: [00:34:39] Yeah, no, this is for the consumer. So this is basically the FDA just publishing something, something for the consumer in a kind of concise way for the client reports. Right. Then on May 17, more studies have been done and published on the relationship between. What’s happening, NBC, and the item that’s in the baby formula that’s causing it. And then on top of that, May 19, just yesterday, the National Library of Medicine, which is one of them, every that they know about this stuff, it’s one of the highest known for science published a new study on NBC in very low birth weight neonates natural history study. So they’re just going to keep coming out with these studies. So my first in my opinion, I think the first takeaway should be take care of your community and the best way to take care of your community as a law firm lawyer, whoever you are, is to inform them and give your view on. Something that is important to your community, which is this They need to know they need help. They need to know that there’s resources out there for them, including you as a law firm, if this is something that you handle.

Liel: [00:35:51] Yeah.

Grace: [00:35:52] Simple TikTok video. Like Liel said explainer. It could be 10 seconds. You know, had you did you know that this is what’s happening right now? So just get the information out there and help your community. That’s takeaway number one for me.

Liel: [00:36:07] Join the mainstream conversation. There’s not always really good opportunities to do so in a way that is actually relevant to the work that you do. And and sometimes just like this one, it is one that you can give your audience well, your audience, your community a better idea, better context as to what’s happening, how did we got here and what should be done and how things would look like if justice would be enforced and achieved. Right. And I think that’s that’s what people really want to to hear and know about, not just kind of like detailed explanation of what’s happening right now, but giving them a little bit of an analysis, an in-depth analysis as.

Grace: [00:36:48] To insight and actions to take. People need it. Totally. Yeah, totally.

Liel: [00:36:53] Excellent Grace. Yeah, that’s a really good first takeaway. Number two, I think Grace kind of like following up to what you’re suggesting there by giving information, find the right venue for you. I think some some may feel more comfortable doing a more a longer version of a video through YouTube. And others might feel very comfortable creating a very quick bite sized video. Just just a couple of things to keep in mind. Make sure that you are using some good practices when it comes down to the positioning of your camera, particularly the audio, that making sure that it sounds great. Ultimately, if you’re going to be communicating, you’re going to be talking, you want to make sure that the audience can hear you as well. And it’s not distracting or annoying for them that they’ll just going to tune out and just get a little bit creative. I think TikTok particularly is a platform where you want to make sure that you integrate some of the elements that can be used, whether those are filters, special effects, transitions, there’s a whole range of things that you can use to make the video even more engaging. Obviously, think about hooks both for TikTok and for YouTube and for YouTube the same, right? Make sure that you try to add some interactive elements to your video and they not they don’t need to be really high production things.

Liel: [00:38:16] It’s really nowadays easy to add graphic stickers, gifs, you name it to your videos, just to add extra an extra layer of interaction and multimedia that just make things more interactive. I would just say that just get a little bit creative. You know, I know a lot of people out there say the first step is just to create a content in your camera and just start shooting. Sure, do that. Better than nothing but up the game consistently find ways to be better. And another one Grace that I’m going to stick to this once not a third take away but it’s part of this one is don’t get don’t get disappointed if you don’t see results right away these things take time like they really, really do take time they take consistency and constantly self evaluate yourself like see your your your first, your previous videos, what could you do better and try to improve them over time? And if you’re lucky enough that you’re getting comments by the audience and they’re giving you feedback, just take it and see whether it can help you. That’s my takeaway number two.

Grace: [00:39:26] Yeah, no, I, I agree. You know, it’s do it in the method that feels most comfortable with best practices in mind, always, you know, to communicate to your, your community. And that’s always going to be the best way, be authentic, tell the story and give your point of view on something because people are willing to listen and they want that information. We have we have a we have a generation of very informed consumers. So act accordingly is really what it boils down to on that side of it. So for me, the takeaway number three would be to just keep up to date. I know that’s something that we constantly talk about, but be keep up to date in terms of stay on the pulse of your community and what’s important to them. Obviously, this is something that’s important to just about everybody. But talking about like three MB as an example, you know, if you’re in a military community, you’re a military lawyer, whatever that might mean, then get involved in that. You know, just line up with your community and who you who you speak to and what’s important to you, because it’s just going to come out the best for everybody. You’re going to help your client the most because it’s something that’s important to you and that that’s what you’re used to dealing with. Right. And the authenticity cannot be bought. It cannot be created. It comes from within. And if you’re able to tap into something that means something to you, for whatever reason it might mean, that is your best bet. And it’s always the best way to do to handle something, you know?

Liel: [00:40:57] So yeah absolutely. See what our topics of interest and put put on them your perspective. Just like we were saying, a lawyer decided to watch the movie of Batman and analyze it and just explain back to viewers how many different laws Batman broke. Right. And of course, this is fun. This is interesting. And sometimes you can do it from a standpoint of entertainment, but sometimes there’s real news happening. There’s real developments that are having impacts in people’s lives and there’s no better opportunity to join a conversation and give your perspective. I think that’s the most important thing that differentiates you, is that you have a professional, trained perspective that others don’t wouldn’t necessarily have access to. Sometimes it’s easy to take for granted that everyone knows and sees things the way that you do, but the reality is they don’t, especially not as a lawyer. You carry so much knowledge and insights and you can definitely enlight people by letting them hear from a legal perspective what’s the right, what’s the wrong? And sure, throw in their your own personal opinion. Why? Because as Grace is saying, you know, it has to be authentic to you as well. Take a stand. If that if that’s what it takes.

Grace: [00:42:15] Yes, take a stand. I like that. I mean, that’s why you became a lawyer, right? You want to take a stand and you want to help others. So take a stand on what you believe in and and give people the help that they need. Which is your insight as a lawyer?

Liel: [00:42:29] That’s right. That’s right. Grace. And so thank you for another insightful conversation. Have a great rest of your day. We’ll be in touch next week. Another conversation.

Grace: [00:42:39] Another one next week. Liel, thank you.

Liel: [00:42:41] All right. Bye. If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your coworkers, leave us a review and send us your questions at: ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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