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S4 E32: The Future of Search


The Future of Search
ICP Logo

S4 E32: The Future of Search




The Future of Search

There is no doubt that Google Search will continue to dominate the Internet search space for the foreseeable future—Even more so after they unveiled upcoming updates to the user experience during their Search On 22 event.

Liel and Grace go over Google’s announcements: Improvements to the Google Search mobile experience, an upgraded version of the auto-complete feature, and a more dynamic “multisearch” experience to satisfy all your queries. These and more features show that the exciting future of search is here.

Amid conference season, Grace shares interesting updates from this year’s Women En Mass conference and the infamous Monsanto mass tort involving a herbicide that has been proven to cause certain types of cancer.

Resources mentioned in our episode:

Let us know that you enjoy the show by subscribing and leaving us a review! Don’t forget to send us your questions and comments at ask@incamerapodcast.com.


Liel: [00:00:00] At the search on 22 events on September 28, Google announced several new, exciting features across Google Search and its enhanced mobile experience. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and author of Beyond Se Habla Español, How Lawyers Win the Hispanic Market. And this is In-Camera Podcast, where we do not doubt that Google search will continue to dominate the search space for the foreseeable future. Welcome to In Camera Podcast, Private Legal Marketing Conversations. Grace Welcome back. How are you today?

Grace: [00:00:56] Good. How are you, Liel?

Liel: [00:00:57] A good Grace. I’m doing great. And just last week we were together, having some great conversations, catching up, and now we’re here recording this episode and I think we have so much to dive into. But first, you know, how’s everything been for you since I last saw you?

Grace: [00:01:14] Back to back conferences. You know, I just came from women in Mass recently, and, you know, I’ll have some updates for us as we go along. But yeah, it’s been an interesting month. It’s conference season as we know.

Liel: [00:01:27] Oh Grace. Tell me about it. We have I, I have Mass Torts Made Perfect next week which I’m still you know, I cannot believe that you’re not going to be Mass Torts Made Perfect. This is the first time that you miss Mass Torts Made Perfect. I don’t know. In, like, forever. You’ve always been there. So don’t worry. I’ll keep you posted with everything. And I’m sure that you’re going to enjoy taking a little break, because. Yeah, right after that there is another conference starts and then the end of October you’re going to be at Trial Lawyers University. I’m going to be at Great Legal Marketing. And then, you know, just a few weeks after that, there is going to be business of law by the National Trial Lawyers Association, this time in Arizona. That’s great. That’s exciting because we’re both going to meet on that one. But before that, there is also going to be the Crisp Game Changers Summit. So it’s just exhausting. So much things to do. But it’s always fun, right? I mean, this last week when we met, we were at the Brain Trust Legal Group Marketing Business of Law and Marketing Conference. It was just fantastic. It was so nice. It was really, really fun. Not just to hear all these wonderful presentations and panels, but really get to meet with both clients, vendors, people from the industry. It was just nice from that standpoint, right? And it was the first time in Vegas, so, you know, it still had that nice feeling of coming back to Vegas and not the feeling of, Oh, this is the third time that I’m in Vegas in a month. So that’s what that’s upcoming over the next few weeks.

Grace: [00:02:58] Right? Yes, definitely. I’m I really enjoyed Brain Trust Legal Group. It was their first one with Daryl Isaacs and I thought it was a very good show.

Liel: [00:03:06] Yeah. Yeah. They did a really, really good job. And I think the one thing that is worth mentioning that really stands out about this conference is that it was really, really curated by attorneys for attorneys, right? It was not all vendors on stage talking about whatever vendors talk about. Right. It was really lawyers talking about their experience, about their expertise in certain different aspects of the business of law or marketing. And so I think that was, in my opinion, what really makes it stand out. So yeah, I thought it was just kind of like a little summary on that. But Grace, as you said, there is a lot to talk about. You have updates on Mass torts because you were just on a Mass tort conference and we’re going to get into that. But before that, before that, I just want us to revisit some of the, I would say, exciting announcements that Google shared last week. As you may know, there was this Google search event happening at the end of September. And I think, you know, it’s always fun to see what Google has in mind, because here is the thing. A lot of these things have already kind of like partially rolled out. They’ve been on beta or some of them are not really going to have an impact, at least not in the legal industry right off the top, but by us kind of like keeping our fingers on the pulse of it.

Liel: [00:04:30] We can understand already how things may look like down the road. So let’s go through these five announcements and then we’re rolling to Mass tort. It sounds good. All right, Grace. So the first thing that we see here and a lot of this is just I mean, again, we’re looking at mobile search. And it’s really interesting that the announcements come as like this is, you know, what we envision like the new features that we’re adding for mobile search because it reiterates the commitment that Google has to improving the mobile search experience and also the fact that they are acknowledging pretty much that the future of search is on mobile. Right. I don’t think they are diminishing the value that desktop search brings to the table, but I think it does make it very evident for everyone that everything that has to do with volume comes from mobile. It’s really happening on mobile. And the majority of users are searching for mobile. They may also do to other devices, but primarily everything is happening on mobile, so that’s important.

Liel: [00:05:34] Now there is a few things, right, that are going to come up now on the Google screen. When you get into it, start searching for stuff and there is going to be what they call a shortcut. So right under the search bar, there’s going to be a few options as to things that you can do in order to to search in a slightly different way than just typing on the bar. So one of them, for instance, is identify a song, which is kind of like a little different take on Shazam so that you’ll just click on that and it will actually start listening to whatever is that is playing in the background where you are and then search based on that. So I think that’s, you know, a nice cool feature. Is it groundbreaking? It isn’t at all, but it just makes it easier for you to do it than, for instance, to go to your phone, search for an app, Shazam or whatever that is, search from there, it’s just more accessible than it may be now for many users, depending on the operating system that they’re using. So that’s one.

Grace: [00:06:40] No, I mean, I think it’s great because I personally use my mobile to search everything. So it’s particularly the Google app that they’re talking about. And I click on it and I’ve been doing Google Lens forever, so searching, using images and all of that. So, you know, I really like the updates that they’ve made. It’s like you said, it’s not groundbreaking per se, but it’s definitely something you want to keep your finger on the pulse of and the changes that are happening. Yeah.

Liel: [00:07:05] Another thing here, you know, we’re going to look at it as kind of like it’s standalone upgrade, but they’re really, really embracing their Google lens kind of like functionality, right? And they’re really making it very powerful. So if you’re using if you’re using and this is important because to really enable this, if you’re in an iOS device, you have to have the there is actually a particular Google app that you will need to use in order to be able to search through camera on iOS. Obviously, if you’re an Android, it’s much easier than that. But you know, it’s very powerful because you can reverse engineer search by actually just snapping a shot into something. And then Google will search will search that image. And for instance, if these are shoes, well, it could potentially take you to a store where those shoes are being sold. Sold. Or if it’s just, you know, a scenery, it could actually tell you where you’re located. And Grace. You know what? This is actually used also to come and haunt you on your websites as well, because now it’s very easy for the owners of stock photography to know where some of the photography photography is being used potentially without a license. And so they’re finding websites where they’re photographers are coming up through these type of features and they’re reaching out and they’re saying, we could not find any certificate on your website that tells us that you’re actually lawfully using these images.

Liel: [00:08:34] So we are seeking for damages and you’re getting an email from like some some law firms asking you to to pay for for those damages. Right. It’s a total shakedown, but it’s happening. And you just need to be careful. Right. This is not the time not to have your Shutterstock account or to be using Unsplash or whatever source of pictures and images that you can that will not put you into trouble. So just kind of like a little parenthesis of how these can also come back to bite you in the ass. Now, Grace. One other thing about this, right? And I’m just going to rush into it, is that right now through the microphone also, you know, you can obviously dictate a search query and obviously that’s that’s straightforward. But you can also kind of like hum a melody to the phone. Yeah. And then Google will use that to identify what was the melody that you were searching and then give you results on that. So let me give you an example of potentially how would this work if you would go there and you would harm kind of like the melody or the jingle of one of the insurance companies, like a good neighbor State Farm.

Liel: [00:09:50] Okay. So you go and you do that. And so Google will take you to the state, will give you the search results of State Farm right now. What? Isn’t that amazing? And here is what I say. Here’s what I say. How many lawyers do you know? Do you actually use jingles to to to stand out? There’s really not that many. There’s a few. There is a few. There’s fantastic examples, legacy examples. This has been used throughout history, but not to the level that it should. And actually, Grace, not only we’re talking about conferences at my talk in great legal marketing this year, I’m going to be focusing on sonic branding and how law firms should be leveraging these to really stand out from the crowd and really live inside the future client’s head, because melody is way more memorable than any other thing. Any other marketing that you put out there may not necessarily stick in their minds, but melody, music, something catchy. Will So I think this is a great sign that the time for you to have some sonic branding is coming. So yeah, that’s one thing. Now let’s move on. There is this, you know, results in the search bar. So do you mind talking a little bit about how does this look like?

Grace: [00:11:06] Grace Yeah, definitely. So again, it has to do with making things faster for people, right? So when you start typing, it’s about your intent. That’s what Google always tries to do. So when it comes to populating results before you’re even done typing, that’s what Google is basically promising that they’re going to continue doing and then add to it, right? So when I say continue doing and add to it. So let’s the example they’re giving is for Funston, let’s say, well, you know, people when they look for a particular location, sometimes they’re looking for the weather they might be looking for. Can I see what it actually looks like in this case, a webcam, a video of the actual location. So it’s scheduled to roll out in the next few months. I have seen this actually a few times when I’ve done search myself where it would give me kind of related queries and also what the rest of it. And it’ll just show me little tabs. And I don’t know anybody on here has used Trello boards or anything like that. I mean they referred to it as iOS widgets, which I have an Android, so I’m not familiar with that side of it, but I am familiar with the little Trello boards and project boards and image boards, and that’s kind of how it comes up when you’re looking on the search. But they just the whole idea is to make it faster, right? To make it easier. It assumes what you’re trying to look for and then it gives you more information on top of that. So it is going to display links right directly under the search bar as you start typing even. And it’s going to assume what you’re looking for from there.

Liel: [00:12:37] Yeah, really kind of like fetched links, right? Already showing some featured image and some initial meta information. If you are looking for a business, it may already start displaying their opening hours, you know their address really depending on what it is. But that’s on the search bar. And I think what what we’ve already grown used to is seeing like Google autocomplete, the search query for us. But this would come above the autocomplete options. It’s going to be actually already triggering potential results that could be of interest to you. And and it does sound that it’s primarily triggered towards showcasing businesses. That may be what the search query is about or maybe even products. But again, it’s going to be interesting to see how those these evolve into what does this evolve into? And it does remind me also a little bit, a few a few episodes ago, well, a while ago when we were talking about Neeva, you know, the search engine that is all privacy centered, they been building their platform a lot a lot on this is as you are starting to type, they’re already starting to list the results on the under the search results bar as you are typing. So that’s pretty cool. And I’m not sure how does that tie to the no privacy to the privacy first sort of model, but it could very well be that, you know, they are so confident about the fact that they are not interested in showing you ads that they don’t need to wait for you to actually type the entire search term or the search query to then not kind of like run their bid and then be able to also populate their ads into the search results page.

Liel: [00:14:13] This is kind of a way of just saying, you know, we are we’re not going to make you way, we’re going to give you the information right there. And then a few other things, Grace, that were mentioned is this enhanced query refinements. So again, under the search bar, you know, in in some instances where it may not necessarily start showing your results, it may start showing you some little kind of like category tags under your search query so you can further filter out the results based on some parameters that may be interest of interest to you. So, for instance, here they’re giving you the example of best Mexico cities, and the little tags that are displaying under are to visit for experts to vacation for families. Right. So it actually helps you not just see the results for best Mexico cities, but to see best. Mexico cities based on what your interest may be. And what we you and I were mentioning here is that this could potentially help users create or transform their initial search queries into from being more broad to being more long tail. So a lot, you know, thinking of how this could potentially translate to the legal industry. It could be best personal injury lawyer. Right. And then the stacks coming under could potentially become for car accidents, wrongful death for commercial vehicle accidents. Right. Kind of like giving the the next level of filtering out already right in front of the user and then it’ll be. There will be way more intent and the user in the end and what they’re going to be experiencing on the search results page when they when they land into it, may actually lead them to convert faster because it’s going to be more relevant to them.

Liel: [00:16:16] They’re not going to have to weed out, you know, the personal injury lawyers that are specialized in slip and fall when they’re actually looking for a dog bite. Right. And so I think that’s really great and powerful and Grace. You know, just to wrap this up, I think the other really two exciting things that they’ve shared and they mentioned is how they are trying to make the search results page in mobile seem more dynamic. So instead of kind of having the traditional layout where it’s just text and listings, now they try to make it look like little widgets with different things and elements. So they give an example here. For instance, if you’re searching for a destination, so you may see kind of like a little elongated rectangle that gives you the map, right? And then you have another square that has the driving distance and then another one with the current temperature. And then what’s very cool is that they’re going to be fetching some videos, primarily videos that are in portrait mode. So think about Tiktoks, think about shorts so that you could potentially play the video right there from the search results page. And as you’re clicking on it, it will expand to become the whole size of your screen, but you’re not actually being taken to the platform where the video is actually posted.

Liel: [00:17:43] So it’s a much more interactive experience for the user and the search results page is just more fun to navigate that way because you’re not just reading, text and going through listings. So this is really, really fun. But we’ll have to see how does this really translate for other less interactive search queries? And I think that’s why, you know, the final point that they give here, the fifth one combining text images and video, they’re trying to create a model that in some cases where driving directions does not apply and whether it does not apply in a map would not apply. There is still going to try to showcase on the search results page bigger images with some preview of text and also maybe potentially if there are videos on the page where the content that the listing would guide to there is a video in it. It would also display a preview of that video and such. So kind of try to leverage whatever multimedia assets are in the websites that Google is trying to or are listing on the search results page and just presenting them in a more interactive way. So I think this is this is really exciting and it obviously is telling us that Google wants to see this type of content on websites, right? They no longer want to just settle with text. They also want you to have some interactive elements so that they can showcase them on the search results page. So I think we can take quite a few cues from here and learn, and it’s going to be fun to see all of this evolve.

Grace: [00:19:16] It just teaches you that content marketing has always been and will always be key, and that includes mixing your media. I mean, we’ve talked about that a few times, so I really do enjoy the new way that they lay it out because, you know, I’m always looking for new vacation locations and things like that. So this to me, you know, it shows you everything kind of on one screen and then you can keep scrolling to look for more information if I want to visit specific places inside of that place. So yeah, I think this is going to be fun to see how it all rolls out in particular.

Liel: [00:19:46] I agree. Grace All right. So, Grace, you’ve said you had some updates on Mass torts and we want to hear about him, so let’s dive into those.

Grace: [00:19:57] Okay. So I’m going to start with the roundup. All of these updates that I’m going to be providing are coming from very powerful, very important women on the steering committees. And they you know, they were wonderful to provide us with updates on four particular mass torts. I’m going to try and get through somewhat quickly because it was a lot of updates and they’re good updates. But, you know, I don’t want to delve too far into them because they were quite what’s the word I’m looking for, very legal in respect of not necessarily the marketing of it. So it’s the actual updates on the mass tort and what’s happening in the litigation currently. So I’m going to start with Roundup. So many of you may have noticed that the very beginning of Roundup, this was about, I’d say, March 19th or so that they had the initial settlement of multimillion dollar case that they they went to trial. And so there was not a settlement. They went to trial and they actually litigated that particular case. And then COVID hit. So March 19th. I’m sorry, March of 2019. That’s when, you know, the pandemic was basically, you know, just opened up and closed everybody down. And so the idea was that they thought, you know, because of all the wins that they’d had, the trials and everything that had led up to that particular litigation with Roundup, they thought it was going to be, you know, not a knock out of the park, but basically, hey, they’re going to they’re going to settle. They’re going to take a look at this because non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma and, you know, the usage of these individuals seems to be very clear link causally, as they say, you know, causal link where they can say, okay, roundup and usage, lots of usage of Roundup over the years does cause cause non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma.

Grace: [00:21:47] Now, what happens is, you know, when the pandemic hit, everything kind of shut down. And so Roundup was in this kind of holding pattern. Most recently, it finally came back out. They were still settling cases at the time, but then it stopped right again because of COVID. So they started they being Monsanto, right? They started pushing back. And after eight trials over the last year or two, five were defense verdicts which which for those of you who don’t know, what that means is that they won five of the last cases in the last trials. That obviously is an indicator to the company that they have a good chance of continuing to win. Right. So obviously, the the firms that are involved in this, they are going to go back to trial because they believe 100%, particularly because they already they had won the first few verdicts that this this is still their right, the link is still there and that it’s super important that you continue to work up your case as best you can. And when I say work up the case, I’m talking about making sure that whatever the criteria is states that you have that and you have that clear. And I know it’s difficult for a lot of people, particularly because non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma is a particular cancer, but there are subtypes of that cancer.

Liel: [00:23:22] Right? Right.

Grace: [00:23:22] So when when they go into court not knowing exactly what that NHL is, what the subtype of that non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma cancer is, is a problem. So you need to make sure that whenever you speak to your clients and that whatever clients you do have that you understand and you know exactly what subtype of that cancer they have. Because the more information you have on any mass tort, on any case, obviously, the more that the litigators can prove that there is a link between them, particularly if it’s. A rare kind of cancer, which this particular subtype that they’re talking about under there is a very rare cancer. So, you know, the more you can link something to the particular the injury to the particular product, in this case roundup, the better off you are. So the updates that are having the most recent update is that on November 7th, they’re going to be trying again in the San Francisco State court. There’s going to be California state trials, and I believe there’s going to be 1 to 3, another three trials coming up very soon. So starting November 7th. And they were all the ones that were won, meaning the ones that went to for the plaintiffs. They were all direct exposure, meaning the person actually used Roundup and got cancer, non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. So for those of you that are talking about what they call drift exposure or, you know, by proxy exposure, it’s the person needs to have used it themselves. And that seems to be the closest link that they can make. Now, there is one case that was a pediatric case that was one, and that is the child was in the belly of the mother while she was using Roundup. So that’s the only non exposure direct exposure case that has been one.

Grace: [00:25:22] But those are obviously few and far between. They’re a little harder to prove, but the reality is they are they do believe that even the pediatric case, while it wasn’t direct exposure, they won that one. Now. The cases have been remanded, which means the JCCP is no longer taking new cases. There’s no common benefit. I’m not going to go too, too deep into that because that is more legalese than anything else. And most of us are here for the updates and what the criteria changes have to do with it rather than the actual cases or the litigation of it. So with that being said, I am going to move on to this. There’s something called a preference statute, which is why they are going to do this in California. It has to do with the age of an individual, and it’s super important to realize that that that’s why they’re doing state trials inside of California is because of this statute that’s called a preference statute. It basically says that a person who is over 70 or about to pass away from this, this problem, they have to go to court. And for they the court has to accept that they can go to court in four months if they can prove it. So that that’s great for the plaintiff. Obviously, it’s hard on the attorney because that means they have to go to court in four months. But that is one way that they are trying to make sure that their clients are getting served and that’s why they’re going to California for Roundup and doing this in state trial court rather than through the middle, which we normally talk about.

Liel: [00:26:59] I’m actually Grace really mind blown by the fact that Roundup still has so many developments because honestly it’s a mass tort that the way that we’ve been talking about it at least over the past year, it almost felt like there is no more really surprises to come out of it, to say the least. And it felt pretty much that it was starting to fade out. And so it’s really it’s really interesting to know and to learn that there is still one needs to remember that these cases have not all already been settled, that it’s not just, you know, as much as the as as a frenzy for the mass tort may have faded away. The cases are still there and they’re still open. And not everyone has already reached a settlement and not everybody has already closed their cases. And so I think it’s very important to keep in track that because it really illustrates perfectly how mass tort is really a long term project investment legal matter. And so this is a fantastic example for it. Grace. And I also think, you know, you’re really giving us a lot of information, and I really think that it would be worth our while because if this was just Roundup, I cannot even imagine when you get to Camp Lejeune that it’s so happening right now and there is so much buzz going around that everything that you will have to share. But we’re going to keep that for our next episode.

Grace: [00:28:24] Grace I do want to mention that Roundup, as you know, since Paraquat is so closely related, that’s why they’re also doing it in California State Court as well. Yeah. With that being said, let’s get into our takeaways. Do you want to do the first one about Google search and.

Liel: [00:28:40] Absolutely, I’ll be happy to. So a lot of exciting things happening in Google in terms of mobile search. I think, you know, you just need to keep in your mind creating more interesting pages, not just text pages with a little picture. Try to start embedding your social media content into your pages. Nowadays, we are living in an era where it is not rare at all for lawyers to have their YouTube channel to do TikTok posts, to do Instagram stories, to do all kinds of different types of content. So don’t just limit yourself. Once that content is out there, just work with your web team and get those posts, those things that are relevant about the topic that is being talked in your page to the content that you’ve been posting on social media and merge them. Right? I think we’ve gotten used to doing that for YouTube videos, right? You have your practice area video published in YouTube, you embedded into your practice area page in your website, but start doing that also with your social media content. Don’t just limit yourself to YouTube videos or Vimeo videos. So I would say that would be much in line with what Google is trying to showcase on the search results page. It will certainly put you in an advantageous position. That’s my takeaway with regards that grace.

Grace: [00:29:55] Perfect. And yes, I agree, completely mixed multimedia content messaging. That’s what you always have to do. You need to mix the different types of content because everybody has a different way of absorbing information. And the more that you can provide them with different ways to look at that information, the better off you are.

Liel: [00:30:12] I agree totally.

Grace: [00:30:14] So my my take away the next two ones will be mass tort related. You know, while we think that a lot of these cases, mass torts in particular, they fade away. Right, because they’re not as cool or as important at the moment. Marketing companies may or may not necessarily be going after them anymore because they think that they’ve faded away. The attorneys that take care of. These cases and attorneys and law firms that are involved in mass torts know that that doesn’t go away. Right. Every case, every individual is just as important as the next one, whether it’s part of an MDL or not, whether you’re doing it through state court or not. However, it is that you’re doing this, there are there is leadership involved on all of these cases. And I would tell anybody that would, listen, reach out to that leadership, you know, reach out to companies like us, reach out to companies that understand the mass torts, because these are people these are cases. And it’s super important that you keep up to date as a firm if you have one or two or even 1000 of these cases as to what’s going on.

Grace: [00:31:18] And people are very attorneys and law firms are very keen on making sure that we all share in this information. And that was part of the biggest thing I’ve I noticed as part of women in Mass when I was there is the updates. They wanted everybody to be involved. They want people to know what’s going on. And they were sharing all of this information between each other because the better off that each of us are, the more criteria, the more information, the more we can hone in on that particular injury due to the product device or whatever it might be in this case. Roundup. The better off you are as a firm and the better you can serve your clients. So I think it’s super important that you reach out. Reach out, Reach out. Always. I know we always say that on here, but it’s it we mean it because open source information and the more we share with each other and for our clients, the better off everybody will be. That’s my second take away.

Liel: [00:32:11] Love that, Grace. What are we going to make our third take away? Let’s do something jointly.

Grace: [00:32:17] We always talk about attending conferences, and you’re going to great legal marketing. You know what you mean? And you’re going to be discussing some of this stuff and how all of it ties together. So yeah, maybe that could be our third take away.

Liel: [00:32:29] I totally agree. Grace There is no lack of options right now to choose and pick something that is either nearby, that it’s in there on a topic that you’re interested in, or whether it’s an area of law that you haven’t yet explored. For instance, in the case of mass torts. There is so much happening, obviously. I think this episode is coming out on the Week of Mass Torts Made Perfect. Maybe a little bit hard to act last minute unless you’re really close by to Las Vegas. But there is other things happening, right? As you’re saying, there is a Trial Lawyers university which has proven to be a very successful and very fun event. And you’re going to be there and you’re going to be talking about running a remote team. And so that’s exciting. There’s great legal marketing, which is another kind of like mastermind group that’s also very interesting, very fun that’s going to be happening in Nashville. And then, of course, there is this super mega event that crisp game changers summit three with, you know, really superstar speakers and all that thing. And so if that’s kind of like your thing, go there. There’s value in all of them, right? Whether it’s the content, whether it’s the networking, whether it’s just like stepping a moment outside of your daily routine and just give yourself a time to think, to watch, to observe, to just, you know, unwind a little bit. It actually does much more than you think. So there’s benefits to 360 degrees whenever you do that. So, you know, consider it Grace. Good takeaway. Great conversation. Thank you so much for the updates. And the great thing here is that we’re going to be back sometime soon so we can continue building up on this because there is a lot of more details that I’m sure you want to share about Mass torts and then about other things, whether it’s marketing, whether it’s tech, whether it’s business of law. This is your place. So until next time.

Grace: [00:34:19] Until next time, Liel.

Liel: [00:34:20] All right. Bye bye. If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your coworkers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at: ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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