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S4 E1: DuckDuckDesktop


ICP Logo

S4 E1: DuckDuckDesktop





It’s 2022. For the first episode of our fourth season, we discuss hope, privacy, and the importance of top-of-the-funnel marketing for law firms.

We examine why desktop traffic is becoming increasingly more important and how DuckDuckGo’s upcoming release of a desktop browser might affect your legal practice’s traffic.

Spoiler alert! Not much.

Yet. Still, this is something you should look out for.

Meta (aka Facebook) is starting the year with more regulations to their targeting options. Another reason why you can’t only rely on third-party data and make an extra effort to get to know the users who already like and trust your law firm and use your data to find more like them.

Lots of lawyers brush off display advertising as ineffective. Still, to first test the effectiveness of display advertising, you need to make sure you start by having a well-composed display creative. In this episode, we explore how to create an effective static banner.

Welcome to the new year and our fourth season of private legal marketing conversations!

Resources mentioned in our episode:

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

Enjoy the show? Please don’t forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!


Liel: [00:00:00] Duckduckgo is a search engine that claims to collect no private user data. It is estimated that two point four percent of search queries in the United States come from this search engine. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and author of Beyond Se Habla Español How Lawyers Win the Hispanic Market. And this is in camera podcast, where we believe users are not against sharing data. They just want more control over it. Welcome to in-camera podcast, Private Legal Marketing Conversations, Grace, welcome to 2022. How are you?

Grace: [00:01:02] Good. How are you?

Liel: [00:01:04] I’m doing good grace. We made it 20 22. This is the third year that we are recording a podcast started at in 2020. And as a matter of fact, I really wonder whether the first episodes, even though they got published on 2020, whether we recorded them in 2019. Can you imagine that we’ve stretched this project for that length of years already?

Grace: [00:01:28] I’m surprised it doesn’t feel that long

Liel: [00:01:32] It really it really, really doesn’t, but it’s great to be back. Very, very excited for the new year. And I know it’s kind of like lame to say that you’re excited about a new year and stuff, but I will tell you a few reasons why I am very hopeful about 2022. Number one, I really feel that even though right now we are on a shitstorm when it comes down to the whole Omicron situation, I think we are very close to the end of this pandemic kind of like. Having control of a lot of our lives, and so that makes me very, very hopeful, and I also think that because of that, 2022 is going to be a year where we are going to be able to make better transitions into things that are actually good and beneficial, not because we are being forced to it, but because it actually makes more sense. It’s going to be a time of realization that, hey, you know what? Certain things actually can work based on these new practices that we’ve learned during the pandemic years. So, yeah, I don’t know if that was the right topic to set the tone for this conversation, but it was about hope, not about the pandemic. So that’s me. What about you, Grace? How do you feel these first week of 2020 to?

Grace: [00:03:01] You know, it’s funny because you and I were talking about it before we even started the podcast. And you know, I do feel slightly overwhelmed. But at the same time, I feel what you’re feeling, which is hopeful because they feel like people are kind of coming out of the shadows, you know, regardless of what’s going on to a degree, right where it’s we’re trying to take control of our own lives and our own destinies, knowing what we know now about the pandemic and different things. But yeah, twenty twenty two to me, feels hopeful, feels very, you know, like it’s going to be something different, whether it is or not, you know, I don’t know, but I do feel hope and I feel positive because we’ve dealt with it this long so far. And I feel like, you know, people around me and all of us are trying to work towards the common goal of, let’s get rid of it or at least learn how to live with whatever we have to live with so that we can go back to as normal possible of life.

Liel: [00:03:58] Yeah, yeah. And so and for me, it’s it’s all about that, right? The normal part of it. I’m very encouraged about how in general, the industry has been able to adapt to remote working, to adapt technology and to get really good at it and efficient, right? I think initially it may have been very painful, but I think at this point it’s no longer about kind of trying to get caught up with productivity. It’s it’s about setting up a new benchmark altogether and that I think it’s really encouraging. But at the same time, it’s also compensating finding the right ways to compensate for what when you are working and collaborating remotely, it’s being taken away both from the internal aspect of it, the internal human relations. And then, of course, the ones that are front facing towards your, your, your clients, your community. So all of that is going to have to be fine tuned again to make sure that you’re not, you’re not missing out on one of those things. This is a little bit abstract conversation. Grace. So why don’t we get into things that are a little bit more objective? Because, you know, it’s been almost two weeks since we last recorded an episode here at In-Camera podcast and. Things have happened, Grace, in various news. I’d like to start with one. This is personal. So Grace, you know what? I received the news earlier this week that we got a spot at the National Trial Lawyers Summit and we will be exhibiting there. And I’m super excited because it’s an event that we were at this year. We exhibited there and it was fun and it was really, really interesting to attend the conferences. And so I’m so much looking forward to seeing you there.

Grace: [00:05:51] That’s right. You know us, we always got to have something or somebody or something that we’re going to do. And actually, I told you before, but I don’t think we’ve really mentioned it to anyone, and we just recently are looking for approval on the post themselves. So I will tell everybody here for the first time, there’s been a little bit of rumors and those of you that know us, we did Danica Patrick for the whole persistence persisting. And I have a picture, right? Well, this time, guess who we’re going to have? It’s another extremely persistent individual, and that is John McEnroe.

Liel: [00:06:29] Yeah, a little bit of a background who John McEnroe is.

Grace: [00:06:31] So John McEnroe, for those of you who don’t know, is a pretty famous, at least, especially in his time tennis player. So he was known for basically taking over the court and in his day, especially in his prime, he was a excuse. The language, a bad, you know, I mean, he just took that court and ran and he there was no if he was no losing with this guy, you know, if he lost, he was going crazy, nuts and, you know, just super competitor. He’s actually the nicest person. You know, I’ve had the opportunity to speak with him a little bit, and he is super nice and super wonderful. So I’m excited about him being there and, you know, kind of being our influencer and representing PERSISTE Group.

Liel: [00:07:17] That’s great, Grace. And you are already putting into effect one of the predictions that we’ve had for 2022, right? Which is influencer marketing. Yeah, just being a great strategy to take on. So one of the things that we want us to start our conversation with today is DuckDuckGo desktop browser. Here is the point. Last year, particularly was a year of a lot of awareness about privacy, the whole conversation about cookies in them no longer being seen as if you may, very ethical way of doing digital marketing and such. So privacy became pretty much at the center of all of this. And so what does it mean the arrival of a browser app for DuckDuckGo? It’s basically a making it easier for people to be able to use this platform. And I will tell you that when we are seeing the sources in analytics for our clients websites from where they’re being found. There are people who come from DuckDuckGo. It’s a it’s it’s a single digit percentage and usually on the low and sometimes not even a percentage, depending how big the traffic is for the account. But there are people who use this. I mean, there are people who are aware of it and to use it. And the thing about it is that DuckDuckGo doesn’t cost you. You have. You don’t have to pay a membership for it like you do for apps like Niva, which we talked about recently. And it looks like Niva is also, as of now, taking a little bit more of a mobile centered approach to their platform. But ultimately, you know, it’s going to get desktop as well, and it’s going to it’s going to also get market share from there.

Grace: [00:09:21] You know, as you said, privacy has been a big problem, right? For advertisers, users, everybody, honestly. And then when the iOS decided to also make it harder for advertisers to see your individual data. And then on top of that, you know, even before that GDPR, right, we’re we’re not really as involved in that. And that is, you know, the that has to do more with the EU and the other side of the world. But with all of that, I feel like DuckDuckGo is is trying and it will succeed to a point just like any other one of these that will make it privacy centric. But like you said, it’s single digits, right? So I don’t see anything happening any time soon, if ever, in terms of taking some market share from Google because it’s Google.

Liel: [00:10:16] I mean, maybe DuckDuckGo as a stand alone may not, but collectively between DuckDuckGo and what Niva is coming with a little bit more of strength. And obviously they were taking a different approach by making it a membership platform. And with that comes the promise of a better experience that is not just limited to privacy, but potentially to other things. And so I think that’s going to be very compelling. I don’t think that there is enough of an incentive in privacy for people to want to pay for something that many of them actually do appreciate, which is targeted ads, right? I think despite the fact that, you know, when you’re being presented that little pop up box on your phone asking you if you want to allow the app to get data from you so they can serve you better at it almost sounds like like a no brainer. You know, like, why would I want to give you my data, right? Like that sounds like the wrong thing to do. But ultimately, the experience of actually getting presented things that are useful to you. It’s not. It’s it’s not unappreciated, right? So I think, you know, the whole consent side of things is going to have to be reworked in a way to make it more compelling for the user to want to want to want to share a data because I don’t necessarily see that users are completely against being exposed to advertisers.

Liel: [00:11:58] I think it’s more about how much control they have over the data, the data that it’s getting shared as opposed us to totally know or totally yes, right. And so I think that’s that’s one of the equalizers that it’s going to have to get fine tuned here in 2022 to try to go back to my opening statement. So Grace, yeah, that’s DuckDuckGo. But definitely it’s going to be very interesting to keep an eye on what’s happening there. Again, this privacy center platforms that have been very much focused on desktop on mobile devices initially, but it’s interesting to see them transition into the desktop world and again comes back to the fact that we are now in a place where we are no longer seeing ourselves not relying that much on desktops because we’re now spending a lot of time in our homes or offices or in our homes for many of us. And so desktop is getting used to way more than it was a couple of years ago. So it’s you know that that mentality also needs to shift up to a certain extent. It’s not 100 hundred percent just mobile. Now, usage of desktop has been increasing.

Liel: [00:13:11] Now last thing because I do think it’s funny here, it says that DuckDuckGo say that their market share in the United States in search is nine percent. But right next to it, there is an actual stat from Statista that says that it’s actually two point five. So talking about inflating numbers, right? But I mean, again, there is certainly a room in the market for privacy centered search. Grace, ready to move on to another update. Yeah. Let’s go, let’s go. And this one is about Mera, and I know nobody uses Mera. Facebook is going to be removing some sensitive targeting options in just a matter of weeks, Grace. So we’ve all known that Facebook had become the most powerful. Advertising platform because of its segmentation capabilities. And it has been. Scaling back back backwards. Those capabilities over the past years because of that, because of moral and ethical issues. Right. And that is why, again, we’ve been talking a lot and particularly when we did our roundup of predictions and such for this year, the acquisition of your database of really knowing who is visiting your site. I think it’s going to come down to that really knowing very well your demographics. So you can basically figure out your buyer persona by by a segmentation that is more traditional per say in terms of gender, age group, income level, geographical location, that sort of thing.

Liel: [00:15:11] Because here are some of the things that are going away. Grace OK, health causes lung cancer awareness world diabetes day chemotherapy. These are not things that you are going to be able to target. Grace I mean, thank God, you know, I totally get it that there is a lot of people out there that feel that they can, that they can actually target these people. And do positive things for them, but it can also be used for very, very, very bad things, right? I mean, you’re really targeting fewer people than when there are turf wars. And if someone starts trying to take advantage of someone who is going undergoing chemotherapy, I mean, it’s not acceptable. Right? Not acceptable. So definitely, definitely. You know, I see this, particularly this one being an issue for mass torts. And one thing that we’ve learned over the years when it comes down to a marketing to mass torts it’s Grace is obviously making sure that you are keeping your audiences not as narrow. There needs to be a lot of awareness and it really comes down to the particular mass tort that you’re working about. That’s why every time that we talk about a new mass tort or so, we always do an analysis as to, OK, how would you go about segmentation there? But because mass tort  for the most of them require a significant amount of awareness.

Liel: [00:16:50] I don’t necessarily see these health causes targeting options being removed, necessarily being an issue. But it can be. It can be when you’re going for some particular mass torts that call for a very particular type of treatment. You can no longer targeted as an interest right now. Sexual orientation that’s out religious practices and groups. So Catholic Catholic Church, Jewish holidays. So it’s interesting, right? Because before so they basically interests as a targeting option is really what’s getting targeted here. Because before these, before these, you could have not targeted people because of their religion, faith or because of their sexual orientation. But you could do. You were still able to do it through interest. Right. And so that is what is being more regulated now. And then there’s political beliefs, social issues, costs, organizations and figures. So going back to what I was saying, you need to. Most importantly, be able to build audiences based on data that you already have people who have already interacted with you, with your side who have taken in completed actions that are of value for you, and then use that to find more users that meet some of those same criteria.

Grace: [00:18:23] Yeah, I mean, especially since, you know, we deal with mass tort heavily. This is something that, you know, it’s it’s always a cross between, you know, too much and not enough. But for me, I agree with you in the sense that I don’t think people should, you know, set privacy, right? It’s personal information, particularly when someone has cancer or something like that. And you know, I agree with you. I don’t think that that’s something that should pop up. You know, that’s super personal identifiable information that, you know, if someone’s super motivated. It’s funny because that’s kind of what I was reading about the cookies and, you know, a little more in depth on on this whole privacy situation with, you know, Google versus DuckDuckGo versus all these other ones. And what I keep seeing is that, you know, Google is the only one that has this thing called FLoC. It’s basically it’s just a third party cookie thing that allows the aggregation of not specifically identifiable data. Yeah. However, if somebody was truly motivated, they could extract personally potentially personally identifiable data from that. So I I agree with you. You know, I mean, I do feel like this is some stuff that there is a reason it’s hipa protected. You know, there’s a reason these things are, you know, in place to protect the individual. And you know, I mean, I really don’t know what else to say about that. My father is disabled, so I wouldn’t want somebody finding that information specific to him online anywhere. So I just think about me personally, right?

Liel: [00:20:03] Or target them for reasons that are not, you know? Yeah, totally, totally totally. So and that’s Grace. That’s that that, in my opinion, that’s kind of like where we are heading in the way that we were marketing. I think, you know, the last 10 years they were. A real learning cycle of the power of digital marketing and how can it be used and we kind of like learn the good and the bad and the ugly. And. You know, we’re humans, and there’s still a lot of learning to be done here, and there’s a lot of mistakes that are going to be made, but I think we are. Better, aware that there is a lot of value in. Building more sustainable connections with the people that we want to serve and that what we want to cater, it’s not just about finding them the second in the moment that they need us. Yes, that’s, you know, amazing. But what’s even more valuable than that is being known before they get to that point? Is being known to them because of the other great things that you are doing, and it’s ambitious, yes, it requires work and such, but so does it require. I mean, it also requires a lot of work and effort to to stay. Top of the page in Google, right for high internet search keywords, whether it’s on paid on an organic, and so it’s very important to have a good balance of yes, I want to be known by. The key words that I want to be known for, but at the same time, I want to be known because we are, we are we’re a good people that care about other people in our community, right? Whether we are the number one or number two listing to show up on the search results page, whether it’s organic or whether it’s so-and-so.

Liel: [00:22:18] And as I’ve said, I know this is not something that is achieved overnight, but I do think that it’s an approach that needs to be taken. And now more than ever, it can no longer be a game of Let’s just do digital. Let’s just let’s just stay online and forget about the offline world Grace. We have one last thing to talk about, which is about online advertising, because at the end of the day, it’s great. It works. And don’t forget that online advertising is not just about Google ads pay per click search network. There is also a lot of brand awareness to be done, whether you’re going to do it over social media, whether you’re going to do it through display advertising, or if you’re going to be doing it through YouTube, which is social media. But it’s very unique as a platform. So Grace in this location, we’re going to talk about how to create the perfect display banner, and I know everyone’s a little bit like, Does that exist? Can you actually have a great display banner? Well, we’re going to find out. Display banners, right? A lot of people question themselves, Do they work? Are they effective? They are effective for what they’re meant to be, which is awareness and potentially help you capture top of the funnel leads. Grace, let’s explain a little bit what is the top of the funnel lead? Because this can get a little bit technical for someone who’s not necessarily familiar with the marketing terminology. What is top of the funnel?

Grace: [00:23:48] Top of the funnel has to do with the flow of an individual through the journey from beginning to end with your firm and to or your company. Let’s make this easy. Top funnel is usually brand awareness, meaning you’re not necessarily going to be expecting conversion from something that happens at the beginning of the lifecycle of a client or a potential client

Liel: [00:24:10] A hundred percent. So top of the funnel means that you are talking to people that are not. They don’t need your services right now. They just don’t. They may. But we we start from the from the from the standpoint that they they do not. Now they do meet with certain criteria that it’s of value to you because that makes them likely to maybe need your services at some point down the road. And so top of the funnel advertising may seem like, Oh, why would you do that? Well, we’ve been doing it for ages and it’s been very effective, right? Tv radio advertising billboards. That’s top of the funnel advertising. You’re talking to an audience that is meeting with certain demographic criteria that are important of you. You want to make sure that if you’re going to be running TV ads, well, you’re doing it on shows where an audience that is likely to, for instance, if you’re a personal injury lawyer of age of driving, right? So that’s basically what your top of the funnel campaign is going to do. It’s going to help you generate more awareness about your brand. And doing it on digital platforms is a great way of doing so because it actually gives you even more ability to segment who is the audience that are going to be seeing this. So instead of necessarily making it very, very, very top of the funnel, you can do something that it’s right in the middle. You can actually create a segmentation based out of behavioral patterns. So let’s just go through what are some of the qualities that are strong? Display visual should have. And just to set up the record here about what is it that we are talking about at display at? We’re not talking about one that necessarily has an emotion in it. It’s a static image. So let’s let’s start with how a great display out static image can look like reads what’s the first thing that it needs to have?

Grace: [00:26:12] So the first thing that an ad needs to have, right, we’re going to start from the top right is the clear logo placement. And honestly, you know, I cannot emphasize this enough where you put who you are is beyond important, particularly with the small amount of real estate that you have here. So make sure that you have clear logo placement at the very top. And that your colors are background color is eye catching and well branded. And you have a clear value proposition. So those three, there’s a couple more things that go inside of that, but those are the three main points. When you look at an ad, honestly, you’ve got to think about your when you review something or if you’re going to click on something. If you were going to buy something, are you going to buy something from somebody that there’s just a shoe sitting in the middle of the ad? There’s no consistency between the color, the placement. I don’t know who it’s from, if it’s DSW, if it’s I don’t know any of that because there’s no logo, no presentation, you won’t. So think about that when you’re doing this and use something like this that a strong top of funnel ad will help you dictate. This is how you have to do it. And it’s a formula, right? I mean, Liel, it’s always about the numbers. So, yeah, no one clear logo placement helps build brand awareness because this is a top of funnel ad. They don’t know who you are, really. That’s what you’re using this for. Background color is eye catching and well branded, and you have a clear value proposition, which means a clear action for them to take on this ad..

Liel: [00:27:53] Definitely strong call to action that it’s very straightforward, right? Call to action is basically the the button. Now, when you’re looking at a display banner, the whole image is clickable, but it’s still good to have an actual rectangle or an oval shaped button somewhere there that actually invites them to take a particular action, right? And you need to dig it. Think, think, keep in mind where they’re going to go next. If they’re going to go to a landing page, a few calls to actions that may work is, of course, a classic, which is, you know, learn more.

Grace: [00:28:34] Read more. There’s I mean, there’s there’s depending on what you’re trying to get them to do at the top of your funnel. There’s quite a few, you know, two word or even one word, depending on what you’re trying to achieve with that particular ad button that you can put on there. But to your point, you need it needs to be a button, right? It needs to have some kind of feeling, even though the whole ad is clickable, some kind of feeling where they they’re being told to take an action that you want them to take, and it looks like they can take an action with a button.

Liel: [00:29:06] 100 percent Grace and right above the bottom, you definitely want to have a value proposition to them and that and that basically needs to be a benefit, why they should take action right, why they should take action. So if your action is, learn more, then maybe your value proposition is going to be something around like get the justice you deserve, right? Well, depending the state in which you are right, I’m not going to say these things are applicable. Some states you can say that some things you can’t, but we’ll fight for your right and so then your city can do. Yes, please. Because then it connects to your messaging that you have above. So you definitely want to make your copy to be engaging, interesting and stand out. But you 100 percent want to make sure that your CTA is not confusing the user as to what do they mean by that. So definitely you don’t don’t over conceptualize your call to action because people might just get thrown off. So that’s thing. The last thing I’m going to mention about this description, you gave us Grace about how a great display ad should look like, which I agree you pretty much hit the nail on the head. It really covers. Everything is just making sure that, as I’ve said, you know, you’re once they click, they’re being taken to a landing page. And so make sure that the landing page matches the ad in terms of branding and style.

Liel: [00:30:33] And the color palettes that are being used up to a certain extent are also similar in our present in the landing page. Because that’s give that gives you the sense of brand continuation. And don’t forget about these. These leads are very unlikely or very unlikely to convert right there. And then but what you can achieve is that brand recognition is you’re having a moment here where you’re getting the attention of the user and you can give them enough signs so that they can associate your brand colors, imagery, logo. So whenever they leave and they go out and about and they are driving and they’re seeing your billboard or they’re seeing you on TV or they’re hearing a radio spot of you, there’s something there that they can recognize. So again, the power of brand telephone numbers, the power of taglines, obviously the power of the name of the brand and for it to be prominent. So this is a world in which we live Grace, we’re back into really being everywhere. Omnichannel is not just about one single platform because things are not one touch point conversions Grace. This conversation has been fun, and it’s just the first in the year, so there is a lot more to come. But we’re going to have to stop now and just take some takeaways. Yep.

Grace: [00:31:58] So, you know, I think to me, number one, obviously is going to have to be about privacy. Yeah. Well, you know what? Let me back up. Let’s start with number one being hope.

Liel: [00:32:10] The hope. I like that. Grace.

Grace: [00:32:12] Yeah, hope for twenty twenty two. You know, I think we are all looking forward to that. I think we’re all want and feel the need for hope after so many years of problem that we’ve all experienced as the world together.

Liel: [00:32:27] Yeah, that’s that’s right, Grace. I couldn’t agree with you more. We’re super ready to take back control. Keep all of the good stuff that we learned over these past years and let go, let go of those things that have been holding us back. Grace, fantastic take away. Now go on with privacy because I think that is a great take away as well.

Grace: [00:32:51] So number two to me is privacy, right? I mean, there’s there’s resources out there for you as a user. There’s resources out there for you as a law firm company. And even if you’re a vendor listening on here, there are resources out there for you. Ok, so there’s different places that you can go and see and make sure that your ads or whatever you’re doing if you want more privacy, less privacy, if you want, you know, display advertising, you want this, you want that there’s resources. So think about privacy as. A continuous improvement process, and what that means is constantly check and make sure that everything that you have all your systems, that the settings and the privacy settings and the settings for your users when they land on your website. These are all things that you know, your website developers and people that help you with display advertising or marketing. They can also help you with this so there are resources out there. But stay on top of it because changes like this affect significantly your current ad spend, particularly if you’re hooked into Google. But it doesn’t even matter anymore if you’re just hooked into Google, as we can see right with DuckDuckGo and in the and and and so there’s just going to be more of these. So just make sure that you assess, review and adjust. At least every six months to a year right now, particularly because I would normally say every year, but right now I think we need to do it every six months to a year because of everything that’s been going on with COVID and people being remote. So many things in privacy have become much more important to a lot of people and businesses included. So every six months to a year, if you’re able to at least every year, assess, review and adjust.

Liel: [00:34:47] Yeah, totally calibrate calibration Grace you need you need to rely on not just your ability to target people using data that belongs to third parties. You need to be able to also get to your audience by your own means and efforts, right? And I know that it feels well the way I’m paying a platform to get my ads. And so it’s so it is my own means and effort. It may seem like that, but it’s not necessarily that way. And so we are certainly going through a transition period in here, and it’s really important for you to be covered at all ends. So definitely gather your data and most importantly, shift away from the idea that digital is just the type of marketing that happens in in one single interaction it is. It has the power of direct response in some circumstances, but it’s not necessarily the only way it works. Think of your campaigns more as extended strategies and not just like a week or two weeks or three week periods of time where you are hoping to see results because it actually has stages right there. Is this the awareness stage, the re-engagement stage. And then you can definitely be looking at conversion stage, but you need to understand it’s a journey that requires multiple interactions. Grace, I love this conversation so much and it’s hard to finish it up, but I’m not worried because I know we’re going to be here next week doing it again because it’s twenty twenty two.

Grace: [00:36:20] That’s right.

Liel: [00:36:21] The hopeful 2020 all year ahead of us. All right, Grace. Well, thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day.

Grace: [00:36:27] Thank you. You too, Liel.

Liel: [00:36:31] And if you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your coworkers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at: ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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