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S2 E23: Fight Fire With Fire


ICP Logo

S2 E23: Fight Fire With Fire





Going from not knowing where your next case is coming from to becoming the biggest personal injury law firm in your market in under ten years is an impressive accomplishment. But what is even more remarkable is doing it without losing your values and principles along the way.

Atty Michael Morse and John Nachazel, from Mike Morse Law Firm, joined us for a conversation about their recently published bestselling book: Fireproof. A book that is equally valuable for lawyers, entrepreneurs, and business owners, since its lessons and principles apply to anyone in pursuit of professional and personal success.

Our conversation explores the importance of accountability, ownership, and commitment when leading a team, the value of making intelligent decisions based on data, and the value of sometimes making decisions that are not based on data, but merely right.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

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Liel: [00:00:00] What happens when a top auto industry, sales and marketing executive and a top trial lawyer become business partners? They create a fireproof business. I’m Liel Levi, co-founder of Nanato Media, and this is in Camera podcast where we believe that doing what you love leads to success.

Liel: [00:00:48] Welcome to In Camera podcast private legal marketing conversations. Grace, we’re back one more week. How are you today?

Grace: [00:00:54] Good. How are you doing? 

Liel: [00:00:55] Grace, I’m OK. You know, I’m worried, as always, right at this situation that we were passing through. Always unsettling. I you know, I’m worried about the kids right now. I’m worried about schools. I’m worrying about the fact that it doesn’t look like we’re getting out of these, but we’re kind of just settling in and hoping for miraculously solution to come, which it all looks like is going to be in the shape of a vaccine. Grace. So you know what? Enough of talking about COVID. I always start a conversation with that. Right. You’re like kind of like my 30 seconds of relief on worries related to the pandemic Grace. But today we have a really amazing episode planned with guests that will help us understand the value of overcoming adversity and how to do with best.

Liel: [00:01:43] Right, Grace. So without further due, please introduce our guests for today’s episode.

Grace: [00:01:49] All right. So as mentioned by Liel, it is actually a perfect opportunity with this episode that we have. And it is with great pleasure that we welcome back a friend to in camera podcast attorney Michael Morse. So attorney Michael Morse has the largest personal injury law firm in the state of Michigan. He has been the recipient of numerous prestigious accolades in the legal industry and for his remarkable community service. Attorney Morse recently published, along with his COO  John Nachazel, a pioneer in the practice of applying business metrics to law firms. Fireproof is the best selling book that can be used as a blueprint for law firms on how to overcome adversity and lead a path to success, profitability and independence. Michael and John, thank you both for joining us today to talk about the book and the journey that led you to it.

Mike: [00:02:40] Guys, thanks for walking us. It’s great to be back.

John: [00:02:43] It’s a great pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us. J

Liel: [00:02:46] ust like Grace say. Welcome back to Incamera podcast. Mike, John, It’s a real pleasure to having you here. And I want to start by congratulating you. Right. You recently became best selling authors, and I was actually checking out on your linkedin Mike, you recently been shortlisted by entrepreneur magazine, along with 6 other titles on at least for books to help you move past the entrepreneurial fears. Now, what came as very interesting to me is that this list was not specific about the business of law. This least was about entrepreneurship as a whole, did it surprise both of you to see you listed there, considering that most of law firm books tend to be very niche specific?

Mike: [00:03:30] So I was very flattered. I know John was, too, and we were surprised. We did not know that was coming out. And, you know, to specifically answer your question. A lot of the feedback that we’ve been getting is that this book is not just for lawyers. And we didn’t really see that coming. We had a person who does integration for lots of different businesses, who coaches the CEO coaching, who called us and ordered one hundred and fifty books. And he says, I’m going to make this mandatory reading across all of my clients and he doesn’t have any legal clients. And it kind of blew both of our minds. We’re obviously flattered. One of those books I’ve read two or three times that daring greatly by Rene Brown. Well, I’m a big fan of hers in that book. So to be alongside her and other great books was just wildly flattering.

Liel: [00:04:24] Excellent. Well, Mike, here’s the thing. When I started reading your book. Right. One of the things that really struck me was when you talk about your childhood experience and how the exposure you had to the service industry shaped in a very meaningful way or your persona, as an attorney. And I 100 percent agree with everything that you say, there. As a side note, I have actually hit 12 years of experience in the hospitality industry. And so that resonated very well with me and really felt close to home.

Liel: [00:04:58] Now, in recent interviews, you have said that you were hope law schools will encourage students to read your book almost as part of the curriculum. Would you also recommend them to seek professional experience in other industries other than law firms as a way to prepare themselves to become better lawyers?

Mike: [00:05:20] So that’s a good question. I probably wouldn’t recommend lawyers going to get jobs in restaurants and things like that. But absolutely, I waited tables all the way up into law school, college, high school, middle school and, you know, working before law school to get that experience with multitasking, with how to deal with people, with customer service, with improving your memory, with reading people and reading tables and knowing how to deliver, how to sell, how to, you know, every waiter, they say, OK, guys, you got to push the salmon, you got to push the tuna tonight. They’re gonna go bad if you don’t sell it tonight. So you gotta go to those tables. You gotta sell. There’s no different than selling clients, selling a jury. You have to be passionate. They let you try the fish. So you know how good it is. And if it wasn’t good, you don’t sell it right. You got to push what you like. So but you don’t how to sell. So I would definitely you know, John, always looks for the resumes that have people who have worked at the food service industry specifically. And we’ve had really good experience. In fact, this is not a plug to Red Lobster, but we have like eight employees who worked at Red Lobster who now work for us. And they’re all fabulous people at employees with the skills that we’re discussing.

Liel: [00:06:40] Yeah, I agree with you, Mike, because you see, I think that people who are comfortable and happy doing a job that is front facing the customer people. Right. Require certain attitudes towards life and towards being around people. And you cannot teach that. You can certainly teach skills, but you cannot necessarily teach someone to love being around people and helping people and liking to get that instant gratification of actually having an impact on somebody’s life, whether it’s by solving them a massive problem like it could be a personal injury case or just by providing him a nice experience, by serving them a nice meal. The gratification feels the same.

Mike: [00:07:18] Don’t you know, you know, when you’re sit down at a restaurant when we used to go to restaurants, you’d sit down and you’d know with it how many seconds if the waiter or waitress was good or bad, you would know within three seconds, five seconds. And you know, if you’re going to have a nice experience with this person or not. And I learned that. I learned how to give a good experience. And when I meet people, it’s not fake. It’s my DNA that’s just kind of became part of me that I want people to feel at ease. I want people to feel welcome. I want people to not think of me, of, you know, the owner of this law firm is just another lawyer here to help you.

Mike: [00:07:55] And that, again, I learned those skills through waiting tables, bussing tables, working in the service industry.

John: [00:08:06] So I just one to build on that and say that for me, when I become the supreme ruler of the world eventually and I can mandate things. One of the things I’ve always told my kids is that I wish everybody could spend a year as a commission based salesperson because it teaches them how to sell, whether in the law arena to a defense attorney, a jury, whoever it is that you’re interacting with. But a couple of my daughters are engineers and neat if they have the best idea. But if they can’t sell the idea to their superiors, it’s not going to really go anywhere. So I think everybody, no matter what you’re doing, has to be able to craft a story and tell it effectively and influence other people to do stuff, whether it’s law or anywhere. I think sales is a great experience. And if you’re commission-based, then it helps you develop a work ethic and teaches you eat what you kill and it teaches you how to be results-based and not just content with showing up and clocking in and letting time pass, but actually trying to make a difference in the world and contribute.

Liel: [00:09:20] So, John, thank you so much for writing that in your particular background has nothing to do with law. Right. You come to the law business without necessarily having any background. And so how much of an impact did that have? And was it advantageous? I think we know this story by reading the book. But explain a little bit as to why do with advantageous.

John: [00:09:41] Sure. I had no experience in law. I had no ambition or dream of ever working at a law firm. That was not the point. I had worked for a big company board, obviously a very big company. And then another company that sold big data side, 20 years of sales and marketing experience, all in the business world. And all of it, especially the second place where I was, big emphasis on data. And so what I learned were the business principles of how to run a business, engineer business. I also got my MBA from University of Michigan. So that was my whole emphasis. And then with a particular passion for data. And I took those experiences and brought those to the law firm. And I didn’t know anything that the law firm had to offer and they didn’t know what I had to offer.

John: [00:10:41] But we were the motion together and really complement each other really well and was able to take all of the principles and that I had learned as a sales V.P. or a product person and really apply them to the law firm in a very direct, shockingly direct way.

Liel: [00:11:02] How did you and Mike met?

John: [00:11:04] So we met. It’s a bit of serendipity, my neighbor. I was looking to make a change. I was not interested in being in the automotive industry anymore. Kept going down, down, down. And so I was looking to make a change. And I told him that I was interested in running a medium sized business. I didn’t say law firm. I just said a medium sized business. And he happened to do the executive testing for Michael at the time. And he had had breakfast with Michael that morning. And he’s like, You’re kidding me. Michael Morse needs you. So Jerry made that connection for us. And the rest is history.

Grace: [00:11:41] And that really is so cool. So it brings me kind of my next question, and this is to both of you. But whichever one feels most confident answering this one. Your book has five main sections. And the one that kind of stands out to me, I’d say, is the Jumbotron concept. You know. 

John: [00:12:00] That’s the right one. Congratulations. That’s data.

Grace: [00:12:04] I am a data nerd, so and I constantly bring it back to other industries. So this is actually a wonderful conversation and podcast for both myself and Liel, because we’re all about data. So thank you. Can you explain the Jumbotron concept a little bit for me?

John: [00:12:22] Sure. So at its most basic, it’s you know, the analogy we use is typically a sports analogy, because at first when we talked to lawyers about a Jumbotron, they’re kind of looking at the importance of data and knowing your numbers. It’s I don’t have time for that. You know, I don’t get it. I don’t understand it.

John: [00:12:39] And it’s kind of shocking how little they know what’s going on with their business. And they feel out of control and anxious because they can’t, they’re driving a car and they have no data coming at them and they can’t really steer the ship without a dashboard, KPIs, and other things to let them know what’s happening. But the sports analogy is, you know, we talked about whether it’s the ball or any sport you could pick, but the coaches and the players in order to make plays and put people in the right position who should be on the field? What position should they be playing? What play should we run? It depends on the score of the game. The time left in the game. I mean, how many time outs are left. What’s the down and distance? What are we trying to do? And I feel like there’s, we both feel, like, there’s so many law firms out there that are trying to coach a game and they have no idea what the score is, let alone any individual stats. And it’s just so much more peaceful and easier to have the data to measure a few key metrics and give yourself a sense of control. It emboldens you to take confident, strong action and gives you great clarity on what your problems really actually are. And it leads you to the solution just jumps out at you once you properly understand the problem.

Grace: [00:14:05] And that makes sense. So during COVID, I know it can be a little more difficult, right, for a lot of people that aren’t, I’d say, in the cloud or, you know, remote particularly, you know, again, during COVID. It’s been very difficult on everybody. So do you have does your staff currently have access to your Jumbotron, to your data points? And how are you kind of keeping up with your Jumbotron for lack of a better word or data?

John: [00:14:35] I’ll take it. So the. We have multiple Jumbotrons. So there’s a jumbo chopper leadership team. But then there’s a Jumbotron for each department and team as well. So all the people have access to the relevant ones. And the team leaders, the senior litigation attorneys have access to the main the leadership team Jumbotron. They know precisely what’s going on. We’re very transparent. Everybody knows what’s going on. And they know exactly what’s going on with their own team as well as others. And it’s just very, very open and sharing. And everybody is able to track what’s going on.

Grace: [00:15:20] Yeah, it’s not pretty standard. I know a lot of times transparency can be difficult within an organization, particularly with a law firm. Right. So that’s kind of interesting to hear that you have an open sort of look into what you have going on with the firm as a whole. So besides these specific, I guess, to each in each of the teams, how else would they know that they’re actually contributing to moving that needle in the right direction on your Jumbotron?

John: [00:15:50] Sure. So we give them access directly into our accounting system. So they see in real-time, 24/7, 365, if they’re at all curious what’s happening. They can go in and see precisely where they are. They know I establish goals for every team each year. And so we know exactly what we’re expecting from each team. And they know to the second where they stand for that progress, what their deficit is, what their surplus is. And it’s fun for me because it’s math and it’s unable to give them a goal that stretches them, but it’s achievable and allows them to focus and generates a bit of competition too, a little bit of a competitive field, which anyway you can create energy is a great thing. And by giving them a number to track against, it’s channeling them, pointing the way of what needs to be accomplished and how much progress they’re making.

Liel: [00:17:02] I think that’s just really remarkable right at the way in which you take the big picture goal and then it trickles down throughout the entire organization to the point that every single team player knows what exactly they need to do in order to achieve the bigger goal. And it just gives you a sense of purpose in something that it’s attainable to you. It challenges you when it keeps you wanting to push forward, because otherwise, when you just communicate, we want to sign a thousand cases. Just by the end of this quarter or whatever. Right. How can a receptionist make that their, right?

John: [00:17:40] Sure. Well, we do a really deliberate job of setting the goals for the year and then making sure that every 90 days someone has a task, a rock that’s assigned to them that’s in alignment with the yearly goal. So we literally are the company that has everybody rowing in the same direction and you hear it said, well, what? It’s remarkable what happens when you have everybody rowing in the same direction. Well, we do. And it’s by design and we have metrics set up that are in alignment so that each person understands their direct contribution to the larger number that it folds into. And it’s powerful and it’s amazing what people can do. And it brings them. It also builds a sense of belonging and togetherness. And everyone feels motivated to do their part and make their contribution, play their role.

Liel: [00:18:38] Mike, this is a question for you in your book, you describe several fires that you had experienced in your personal and professional life, the ones in your professional life getting fired from your first job, your law firm burning down to the ground and losing your biggest source of cases was another one. Is COVID 19, a fire for your law firm? Would that, if we were to have a sequel here, or a revised version of these book, two, three, five years from now? Would COVID be one of those fires?

Mike: [00:19:09] Yes and no. So, yes, COVID is a fire. No, it wouldn’t be in the book for two reasons. Number one. You might have fallen asleep before you read that last chapter because there were two pages on COVID. Number two, and the reason I know that is because I read the book for Audible Copy yesterday. And I forgot we put that in the book. But two. The truth is, we added nothing because of COVID, because being fireproof deals with things like COVID, it deals with tsunamis, deals with earthquakes, deals with fires, deals with all kinds of natural disasters, deals with unnatural disasters. If your law firm or any business is fireproof, you will thrive.

Mike: [00:20:03] In disasters, when your competition is suffering and trying to catch up. And so while they’re catching up, you’re just acting as business as usual. So it’s, I wouldn’t add a chapter. I wouldn’t write a book about it because I’ve already written a book about it.

Liel: [00:20:21] Mike, you recently returned your two million PPP loan. Why? Why do you decide to return it? Obviously, we understand that people who returned the loan, they probably did it because, you know, they could weather the storm. They were concerned about the PR backlash that can come out of these. But really, if we’re honest about law firms, right. People who like you will like you, whether you take the loan or not. And people who don’t like you will continue to unlike you, whether you returned a loan or not.

Liel: [00:20:59] So what was the driver that made you decide? We’re giving back two million dollars that I’m pretty certain would have helped. Right. Like you’re still a personal injury, as big as you are, you’re still a personal injury law firm. There has been a decrease in people on the roads since COVID started. You have a big staff to look after. Why did you return the loan?

Mike: [00:21:25] Well, I didn’t do it to be liked. I did it because I thought it was the right move. You know, to take it to the beginning, the day that it was announced, our bank was calling my team, my CPA, my CFO, my CEO o apply, apply, apply. The money’s leaving. The money’s leaving. Get it. Get it. Get it. My team applied and we got it. Two weeks later or whatever the heck it was at this point. We were still getting calls. We were still settling cases. I waved my salary and I decided, let’s not lay anybody off. And, you know, my team kept looking at me and say, OK, Michael, let’s discuss this. You know, what is the reason to take this money is because that you need it.

Mike: [00:22:12] And you’re not supposed to take it if you don’t need it. And I didn’t need it. And there is a lot of people say, well, your competition is going to take and everybody is going to take and it’ll be a competitive disadvantage if you don’t take. But I didn’t need it.

Mike: [00:22:27] And so and I’m hearing stories that small businesses aren’t getting it and restaurants aren’t getting it, and other friends aren’t getting it. To this day, I hear that and I don’t know my team and I decided together that it wasn’t needed. And so. You know, we just we said, OK, give it back we’d never use a dime of it. I don’t think we had it for very long. I don’t even know if we really ever had it or if it was sitting in the bank and we just gave it back. I don’t care. I didn’t use it. I don’t need it. And. I think and I was proud to share that, and I mostly with my staff to say, guys, we’re going to be OK and we’re going to help support other businesses in our area and in the long run, I just thought it was going to be a good play for me personally, for my firm. And I haven’t thought about it. I mean, I haven’t thought about it. The cases are still coming in the case they’re settling. And thank God I don’t need it. If I needed it, I want to take it in. But we are successful. We brag how successful we are. We’re out there time ready that we win. It seems a little hypocritical to tell people I’m so successful and I win all your cases and then and then and then take that hand out. And that was made clear to me by my team and it just felt like the right move.

John: [00:24:01] Yeah, I’d just add on that, yeah, it wasn’t data that drove that one. I was just. Michael didn’t need it. And it was the right thing to do. And everybody has to judge for themselves whether or not they need it. And he didn’t do it for this effect. But you can imagine that the team looking up to that type of leadership and integrity. Yeah, that’s somebody I want to get behind and go to battle with them and drive things forward. So it was a source of pride and energy. 

Grace: [00:24:36] And even relief I can imagine the staff. They see this. They see that he’s making this decision. They’re like, oh, we’re good no matter what’s going on. We’re good and that’s insane.

John: [00:24:48] There was a lot of fear back then. There’s still some, you know, throughout all of our networks of people that we talked to. Yeah. That was very common. Nobody is getting laid off. Michael is going to waive his salary instead. And we don’t need the money we’re fine.

Grace: [00:25:03] That’s amazing.

John: [00:25:04] That was a good thing to share.

Grace: [00:25:06] It is. And not only that, but, you know, I’ve known Michael for a very short period of time, really. I mean, I’d say about a year now. We met it, you know. One of the mass torts made perfect conferences. And we kind of hit it off really quickly because of, you know, my geek-tech background. And he had a bunch of things with the Twilio and this that the other. So we just became friends for, you know, in the industry, I’d say. And I can see that this is who he is. So it’s not data. It’s not personal. It’s not. No, it’s who he is. This is what he does. And it’s really amazing. I have to call that out right here just because I think it’s important for people to understand that that is Michael Morse. You know, I mean, and that is your business as a whole. And even you, John, you know, being with him for 12 years, this is who you guys are. So in my, the way I’ve always looked at it is consumer behavior and personalization of a company. You need to stand up for what you believe in. And he’s always done that. So, again, I just appreciate that. And I can imagine how good that must have felt for everyone in the firm working for you. So, yes. So that brings me to my next kind of question statement. Michael, you are an entrepreneur. You have the biggest law firm in your market. You are a host of your own podcast. You published your book. You’re constantly creating content and marketing material for a law firm, which I love your videos, by the way, especially with your mom. You give back to the community. So what’s next? What’s next for you?

Mike: [00:26:44] That is a really, really good question. Because, you know, after that introduction of that question, I actually need to take a nap. It’s I feel like, you know, I love building things and I love, I just love building. I love sharing. So there’s two things that popped into my mind when you ask that question. Not that I was not prepared to share either these things, but. One has to do with the book Fireproof. We are getting an overwhelming number of calls and emails for help. And you know, I have consulted with John and he’s agreed to take on a few clients to, you know, act as their coach and mentor and teach them the fireproofed way. We are looking at ways to scale that.

Mike: [00:27:44] We don’t know exactly what that’s going to look like. But John’s energy is all over it. My energy’s all over it. It’s fun. We like to teach. We like to help people. So that is happening. And that was kind of a you know, we thought we’re going out. Also books and, you know, teach. But this, you know, with the book, we didn’t really ask for consulting work. That was not our vision. Because we’re running a successful law firm. But John has done such a good job at running a law firm so well in setting up all the processes we’ve talked about and all the things in the book, that he has some extra time. And he wants to help people. So that’s the first thing. The second thing, because of the podcast Open Mike found on all channels and YouTube. Really developed an interest and passion for helping the wrongfully convicted. And I’ve done several podcasts now on it. Half a dozen. I’ve met two people who spent nine and 15 years in prison for crimes they couldn’t have committed. It’s overwhelming. You know this stuff. Right. So I’m taking meetings. I’m doing the podcasts. And I had a meeting a couple weeks ago. Actually, this is the first time I’m actually sharing this. With people at the Innocence Clinic here at Michigan University, Michigan, and they asked me to take on a case. After meeting me and hearing my passion, but I’ve never done anything like this, but I have 40 lawyers and we’re figuring it out with their help. And we’ve agreed to take on at least one case to help someone who’s been wrongfully convicted, who had a bad trial, get a new trial. And that’s new. It’s next. And it’s, I’m trying to find the right word because it’s I’m feeling pressured. I feel a lot of pressure because I, I this guy gets this nice person who was wrongfully convicted, who had a bad lawyer, who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, had just one shot. To try to, you know, get some justice and I’m going to put my heart and soul into it and I’m going to do my best job possible. But it’s a big deal. It’s out. Definitely. I mean, I’ve owned it to him. I’ve owned it to everybody that this is not my expertise. But they just need good lawyering and all of these people need good lawyering. But all of the wrongful conviction cases that I’ve studied and I’ve studied a bunch all the Criminal defense court appointees they’ve gotten were horrible. Most have been disbarred. Most have been if they weren’t disbarred, they were disciplined. For bad conduct. It’s a it’s a pattern. And I like to talk about the bad judicial and police misconduct and prosecutorial misconduct. I can’t control those things. I can control bad lawyering and make sure it doesn’t happen on my watch. So, you know, if I wasn’t busy enough, I’m going to take on that task. And stay tuned.

Grace: [00:31:12] That is so you, Michael. That’s great.

Liel: [00:31:17] That’s wonderful work. That’s commendable. And very much needed. Right. I think particularly in these times, with so much we’re hearing, so much that’s coming to light. It’s definitely those sorts of things that make a big difference in communities.

Liel: [00:31:33] Mike, this is a marketing podcast, right? And we cannot as much as we want to only talk about fireproof. We cannot not talk also about your TV commercials. Right. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about the masked man that recently got released? And it’s fantastic. We love it.

Liel: [00:31:50] So what response you’ve got of that new ad? 

Mike: [00:31:54] Chapter four, Cherry Garcia versus Vanilla.

Liel: [00:31:57] Five. 

Mike: [00:31:57] So, chapter five? 

Liel: [00:32:00] Yes. I did pay a little bit of attention.

Mike: [00:32:03] So you did finish the book I’m sorry.

Mike: [00:32:06] So. Yeah. That one I. So when ambulance chaser came out a year and a half ago, I probably got 100 random e-mails telling me that’s the greatest spot they’ve ever seen. And they were nice emails. I’ve probably already gotten it’s been out for less than a week. I’ve probably gotten 200 emails telling me it’s the greatest commercial they’ve ever seen of all time. The greatest lawyer commercial, the greatest everything. And I mean, I get up, I wake up, I have 10 on my if I’m able and I share and I share someone, but I don’t share some with my team or with my creative team.

Mike: [00:32:45] But there’s a little bit of an interesting story that nobody’s asked me about yet that I will tell you was that when the when my crack advertising team, Lerner advertising came to me with this idea. I don’t like it. I’m not doing it. Masks are too political. I don’t want to advocate for mask-wearing. I don’t want to you know, I probably have lots of clients who don’t want to wear masks. Right. I probably have clients who were on that side of the debate. I respect them. I mean, I’m not I mean, I believe in I’m wearing masks and I believe in masks and I think it’s the right move. But. I wasn’t willing to put a commercial out there saying wear masks. And the first pitch said there was a board, one of those old fashioned boards that said wear a mask or something like that. And so the whole tone of the commercial was promoting masks. And so I panned it. And then someone very close to me a couple weeks ago said, you know, you should revisit that. And she’s actually in the commercial, the person who the blonde girl with the curly hair is the one who said you should revisit that commercial and you know, she’s also the person who said you should write Fireproof. So she’s pretty smart.

Mike: [00:34:12] And I said, all right, well, we’ll call Ross back. And I called Ross. I said, I’m not promoting masks, but give me a workup on this. And he was so excited and like within two hours, he had it all specked out with the storyboards and I said, OK, this could probably work. And we, it was a 10-hour shoot in a city right here in Detroit with quiet streets that morning. And I had, I wore the wrong shoes and I ran around for 10 hours up and down fire escapes and around the city and saved dogs and saved balloons. And it was fun. It was a lot. It was a long day. I’m getting lots of positive feedback. And it’s fun when that, when it’s accepted and greeted with so much enthusiasm. So I appreciate your kind words. And feel free to share on your channels and email to your friends. It’s got, you know, five, six thousand views already just on my little YouTube or Facebook channel or whatever it is. So it’s, and it’s out there. What we’re buying. We don’t usually do this, but it’s all over the broadcast here in Detroit. We’re buying one minute spots, which we usually don’t do. There’s a one minute and there’s a 30. The one minute is everywhere just because I thought it was so entertaining in these times. And it was worth the extra spend to get it out there because we’re so proud of it.

Liel: [00:35:47] Yes. And I think it’s, in all fairness to your creative team. They did a great job because as you very well said, it’s a sensitive topic. Yet it’s very gracefully handled any it’s entertaining. And, you know, it doesn’t feel as making a political statement. It feels a protective attorney trying to look after his community. That’s really the message that you get from it. Mike, I want to in this same topic of TV. Right. Because you’ve seen it’s kind of like take us to a slightly different direction. But it’s very interesting for me to hear what’s your take on OTT versus traditional TV? Because you’ve been relying very heavily on TV and your marketing advertising so far. But TV is evolving fast and so do you see OTT as the future of TV? Are you already starting to advertise on these platforms or you’re still playing it safe and strong with traditional TV primarily?

Mike: [00:36:51] So I don’t have a great answer for you. I have a full time, you know, team, a digital team that deals with that. And I kind of put that in the digital world, even though it’s kind of TV. I know they bought some. I don’t think we’ve had great results yet. And my team is always looking at new ways to get the word out. And that’s probably the future as people are cutting the cord. And, you know, streaming and, you know, you’re watching alternative devices and things like that. But I don’t think it’s a major focus of ours yet. We’re still heavy on broadcast and some cable. We do have a big presence on digital. Which is obviously big, but it still does disproportionate.

Mike: [00:37:46] I’d say, you know 80 percent is still TV, 20 percent is digital.

John: [00:37:56] Yeah. I literally just came out of a meeting with that team rep for the broadcast here. And I would characterize it as we’re doing enough to experiment and get some data so that we can then make intelligent decisions and monitor how quickly we should shift our budgets to match what the viewers are doing.

Liel: [00:38:21] Yeah, and that’s a lot of the upsides that over-the-top has, is that it gives you data that TV doesn’t. Right.

John: [00:38:30] Exactly.

Liel: [00:38:30] So. Well, it’s very interesting to hear how you’re experiencing that transition. And we appreciate it a lot. Just sharing some of your insights, so. Thank you.

John: [00:38:42] No problem. And attribution, I mean, it’s everything. And knowing what you’re getting precisely. Or what you’re spending will do nothing but give us the competence to shift more and we’ll be able to spend our money intelligently in a very targeted way.

Grace: [00:38:58] Yeah. Between funnel and less click attribution. It’s a lot easier to track data points online. I know. I feel you. So that kind of brings us to what we ask of from the both of you. It can be one or two or three from each one of you. We asked for three takeaways. Three actionable takeaways to make you a happier and more successful person, again, because of your book and the way you operate. This can be anything, right? It can be life. It can be from the book. It can be from your own life. So provide us with three takeaways that you think people can actually take and do something with today.

Mike: [00:39:39] Learn how to meditate, whether it be by an app or calm. I use that, who is it called? I just use meditation timer. And I learned how to. I took a training class on transcendental meditation, which I’ve been doing for a couple of years, which I find very helpful. I exercise every day and I eat mostly a vegetarian diet with some fish. And those are my three takeaways for a happy and healthy life.

Liel: [00:40:20] Full lifestyle there, thank you very much.

Grace: [00:40:21] I like that. 

Liel: [00:40:23] John, what can you share with us?

John: [00:40:25] So, yeah, I was the opposite. All work.

John: [00:40:33] So. No, I’m kidding. Mine were more professional oriented. I would say. Know your numbers though. They point the way. The next one was do what you love to do that that comes up in the book. Too many people are doing stuff that they shouldn’t be. It’s not their unique ability. It’s not their highest, best use and delegate work that you’re not great at and that you don’t love to do to somebody else who does love doing that. And then finally, your firm is more important than your biggest case. So it’s baffling to think that you’re too busy to work on the business. You can only work in the business when your firm is actually a lot more impactful and important than even your biggest case ever.

Liel: [00:41:20] Wonderful. Excellent. Thank you so much, John.

Liel: [00:41:23] Well, Mike and John, thank you again so much for joining us for another conversation. I know you’ve come here and shared that you have some time available and such, but we know that you’re very busy. A lot of people want your attention. And so we really appreciate the fact that you gave us that opportunity to have the conversation with both of you. So thank you very much. And you know, this is your home. You’re always welcome to come and share here, more insights because we love them and we learn a lot from you. So thank you again for being here today.

Grace: [00:41:50] John, if you want to geek out on numbers, I will give you my number.

John: [00:41:55] Please. Please do.

Grace: [00:41:55] Mike has it.

John: [00:41:56] I will make sure I get it. 

Mike: [00:41:59] Thanks, guys.

Grace: [00:42:00] Thank you, Michael.

Liel: [00:42:01] Gentlemen, stay safe. Thank you very much. And have a lovely rest of your day. 

Mike: [00:42:04] You too.

Liel: [00:42:12] Grace. What an amazing conversation. I love having Mike in this podcast. He’s so real. He always has so many wonderful points of view right. On things. And he’s authentic, right? Grace?

Grace: [00:42:25] Yes. And we were lucky enough to get some added things that he wasn’t even thinking about telling us otherwise.

Liel: [00:42:33] And John? You can see how will they compliment each other, right? Yes. What a great team. 

Grace: [00:42:37] That is perfect for what they were saying. Right. About delegating and. Yeah. The difference takeaways they had.

Liel: [00:42:43] It’s kind of like the creativity side of things. And then you have the technical execution, the methodical side of things. And so I think it’s really interesting to have a conversation with both of them at the same time and see the different focus that each one of them takes on the same topic. And so that was mind blowing. I really enjoyed it. And I’m sure everyone who’s joined us so far has had a great experience listening to this episode. But, Grace, let’s go ahead and do our takeaways, because although we’ve already got six very good and strong takeaways, you and I always have ours. So let me give you mine, Grace. And these really as you start reading the book, this actually comes right to your face. And it’s kind of like one of the first messages you get is be in charge of your own destiny. Right. Don’t let others decide your fate. Don’t let all theirs. Don’t put your your success potential in the hands of others. True that everybody has to start from somewhere. Right. But have a plan for your career. Have a plan for your professional life and take bold moves to get towards. It can be scary. Grace it can be very, very scary at times, but at the same time, it can be also very rewarding. And if you don’t do it, you may regret it for the rest of your life.

Liel: [00:44:01] And so I think, you know, just from having had this conversation and such, it strikes me as it’s easy at times to let just others decide for you just follow just to just be comfortable in what’s working right now. But that’s not the best choice. It tends not to be the best choice. So pay control over your life of your career. Grace, what do you think?

Grace: [00:44:27] I think so. I mean, you need to take care of yourself. And that includes working on your own destiny, working on yourself, starting somewhere, but having a plan for your life, whether it’s professional and personal or both. Are all of it really.

Liel: [00:44:40] Right. Yeah, absolutely.

Grace: [00:44:42] So I think that brings us to number two. Right. And this one’s mine. We always talk about well, Liel is also a numbers person as well.

Liel: [00:44:50] I know, but you know, you’re far more into numbers than I am. I think it’s starting to strike me like I like data. I really like data Grace. But yours is on obsession.

Grace: [00:45:04] It’s an obsession. Know your data guys, know your data. How can you not. Right. I know people are scared of it. Right. I think that’s. I feel like that’s been maybe a gut feeling of not wanting to really know what’s going on, because, like you said, they can kind of go with the flow or. Yeah, but you’d be surprised if you actually know what’s going on with your data. You’re going to feel more comfortable and confident in what you’re doing.

Liel: [00:45:36] I think what you’re saying is very right grades. It’s intimidating lights. It puts you kind of like in a very vulnerable position when you really give your self an opportunity to really measure things. Right. Because what you’re facing is potentially you realizing that something that you believe was doing great for you actually works nothing. Right. And, you know, to take those hits actually has a lot of value because it gives you an opportunity to turn things around. And making those moves can potentially lead you to a more successful and more profitable career and business. And so I think it’s something that we can no longer go about without actually acknowledging data and taking steps towards gathering that data. It’s not just about. OK, let’s look at data. The data doesn’t just come to you. You need to collect it. You need to organize it. And you need to analyze it. So it’s a process. We’ve talked about it in many different conversations here in this podcast. And so it’s extremely, extremely valuable. Grace, I agree with you. I 100 percent agree with you. One last takeaway Grace.

Grace: [00:46:46] So I think that both of us can say this one, because this is something we always talk about right now.

Liel: [00:46:51] Let’s say it at the same thing.

Liel: [00:46:53]  OK, one, two, three.

Liel: [00:46:57] Be authentic, right?

Grace: [00:47:03] That’s right. Be authentic, guys. You know, it is something that Liel and I talk about all the time. If you can’t be true to yourself. You can’t be who you are. You cannot do well and you won’t. Yeah, so that’s what it boils down to. Just be yourself. Be authentic. Be true to who you are and the things, if you plan and do what you’re supposed to do and know your data, the rest will come. What do you think Liel?

Liel: [00:47:27] Yeah, I agree, Grace. I mean, that’s the life lesson, right, that Mike shares with us is that be yourself. Be authentic. Right. It came out many times throughout the conversation. We’re not doing things to please others. We’re doing things because that’s what we are. That’s what we think is right. That’s our values. And there is no better feeling than that, Grace. And as it was also mentioned during the conversation. Others are watching and people want to be around people who stand up for their beliefs. And Grace, I couldn’t agree more with you. You know what? I mean, being authentic. It’s not an easy thing to do. But you should 100 percent do it and aim for always staying true to yourself. Going back, how easy it is to do things because it pleases others or because others are telling you to do. But sometimes the hardest thing is to actually stay true to yourself. And so that’s part of being authentic. Grace, so much, to take from this conversation.

Liel: [00:48:34] I’m so thankful for both John and Mike for joining and for sharing also things that they haven’t yet shared with anybody else. Right.

Grace: [00:48:42] You heard it first here, guys.

Liel: [00:48:44] Yeah. Your were the first to learn here that Mike and John are going to be consulting firm, is offering help eventually for growth. Right. That’s massive. Right? Wrongfully convicted felonies. Right. that’s like Wow. 

Grace: [00:49:00] The Innocence Institute, when he said that, I was just floored.

Liel: [00:49:03] And going back. Going back to what? We were just talking. Right. If you think about. I don’t because you’re you you’re you have a background in psychology, right Grace? So, yes, if you’re thinking of Maslow’s pyramid, that’s top tier.

Grace: [00:49:16] That’s right. He’s at the Enlightenment phase. How insane is that. So actualisation.

Liel: [00:49:22] Yeah, exactly.

Grace: [00:49:23] The point in the careers. What can they choose? What they want to do with their time and their lives from here on out. That’s insane. That’s fantastic.

Liel: [00:49:30] It is fantastic Grace. And so that’s what we should all be striving for.

Grace: [00:49:35] That’s right.

Liel: [00:49:36] Thank you for a great conversation. Have a great rest of your day and we’ll talk again next week.

Grace: [00:49:46] You too.

Liel: [00:49:46] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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