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S3 E26: Hot Maps


ICP Logo

S3 E26: Hot Maps





Paraquat, the weed-killing herbicide that has been linked with causing Parkinson’s disease, has been gaining more and more attention, particularly since the beginning of the year. And if you want to know how this mass tort has developed over the past few months, this episode is for you.

Despite being banned in over thirty countries globally, Paraquat has not been banned yet in the United States. The use of Paraquat in the U.S. has only continued to grow in recent years.

Because Paraquat is only allowed to be used by licensed professionals, there is a path to tracing where this harmful pesticide is being used. In our conversation, we discuss how to use digital platforms to discover the potential heat zones of Paraquat cases and how to target them.

Resources mentioned in our episode:

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

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Liel: [00:00:00] twenty-thirdThe Environmental Protection Agency reapproved several pesticides for use in the United States on October twenty third of last year. One of those pesticides is paraquat, a chemical known to increase the risk of Parkinson’s disease. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media, and this is in a podcast where we advocate for a ban of these toxic chemicals. Welcome to In Camera podcast, Private Legal Marketing Conversations. Grace, welcome back.

Grace: [00:00:57] Hi Liel, how are you?

Liel: [00:00:59] I’m great, Grace, just like you, having a very busy week, a week full of events as well. And it’s exciting. But at the same time, you know, I kind of mean looking forward to this day, which is the Friday before the bank holiday weekend, A so we can have this conversation, B isn’t it a great feeling when you are just heading into a long holiday weekend and you’re pretty much at the office without that many distractions? Just trying to wrap up things so you can leave and have peace of mind, even if it’s just for three days?

Grace: [00:01:35] Seriously, I know, right? And especially I think after the year that we’ve all had kind of looking forward to the Fourth of July and fireworks. And I have to admit, I went a little crazy on the fireworks side this year.

Liel: [00:01:49] Oh Grace, be careful.

Grace: [00:01:52] No, no. All safe. Always safe. Safe.

Liel: [00:01:54] Ok, I’m sure you are.

Grace: [00:01:56] We have a location that is very open field. No trees, no houses, nothing. It’s something I do every year with my family. And of course, everyone’s behind, far away from where it actually gets shut off. And like I said, I’ve been doing this pretty much since I was younger with my parents. And then now that I’m older and I have my kid and my family and my sister, we all shoot off fireworks as adults. Of course, not the kids and in the back with the sparklers and little puppets and things like that while we shoot off mortars.

Liel: [00:02:30] Yeah, yeah. Sounds like fun. I’m going to search for the video on YouTube. Crazy fireworks and Florida, Fourth of July and then I’ll see your fireworks probably come up. So Grace. Yeah, you’re right. I think July has always been since the beginning of the year, kind of like that milestone we were hoping to get to. Right. In the sense of like we were promised that by Fourth of July, we would be back to normality. And quite frankly, in many ways we have. Right. In some others, we’re still catching up. But I must say that I think we’ve all feel very appreciative and grateful of how far we’ve come from where we were, for instance, a year ago in terms of going back to normality. And that’s a great feeling. And I think something that in most people doesn’t get lost. Right. I think we’re still memories very fresh still of what went on last year. And I think, you know, this Fourth of July, we’re probably going to be extra appreciative of that freedom to celebrate. So, Grace, with that said, I also have to acknowledge that this forecast is going to get published right after the Fourth of July or while we were still celebrating the Fourth of July.

Liel: [00:03:41] And many listeners will listen to it after they’re actually finished up their holiday weekend. So they’re going to be like, why am I listening now about all of those great feelings that you have right before the bank holiday, when in fact, I’m listening to these when I have to deal with everything back at the office after a bank holiday and we hear you, we empathize. We probably feel exactly the same way this time that you’re listening to the podcast. So, Grace, we have an exciting conversation today. And I say exciting because it’s being the topic that we’ve been coming and going from it for the entire year, several times. And so we’re going back to Mass Torts and we’re going to talk about a very, very particular one, which has been kind of a lot at the center of our conversations. This, as I’ve said, past year. And that’s paraquat. And so, Grace, can you tell me a little bit and help us recap for those who may be listening about paraquat for the first time in this episode, what’s going on with paraquat and why is it gaining so much attention lately?

Grace: [00:04:51] So paraquat is can only be used by those who are licensed to use paraquat. The reason I’m mentioning that specifically is because a lot of people are comparing it or likening the lawsuit to Roundup. Right. Because it is an herbicide. The only big difference besides the fact that it’s only licensed people can use it, meaning there’s not going to be like home-based usage. Right. Which Roundup did have. It’s going to be license people. It’s also that it’s a desiccant. So a desiccant in the agricultural community just means that it will also remove essentially moisture from the plant. And they control the way the plants grow using paraquat in addition to using it as an herbicide to get rid of weeds and things of that nature to keep the plant growing at the rate that they want it to grow. And now paraquat have been used in the. I mean, for over twenty five years, I believe the name that people are used to seeing is gramoxone. If I’m saying that correctly, I know the pronunciation is a little odd for me, but in the last twenty five years, it’s increased its usage. And this pretty much came about in 2009. It went up two hundred percent the usage because not actually because of the round of lawsuits or anything, that it’s because of the resistance that plants have had against glyphosate, which is what’s in Roundup. So because of that and they also found that if they mixed paraquat with some other herbicides or agricultural products, they find that they can either make the plant grow faster or slower or basically grow it at the rate that they’re looking for for these particular crops. Right. So that’s what paraquat is. It’s been banned outside of the United States by regulations over the last years. I mean, since 1980, even as a matter of fact, it was banned in Sweden in 1983, Austria ’93, most recently in the E.U. in 2007, and banned by specific companies like Dol, Chiquite, and the Fair Trade Organization because of its effect on humans.

Liel: [00:07:24] And all the while that, well, that was happening and it was getting banned in other countries. The usage here in the United States continued.

Grace: [00:07:34] Increased.

Liel: [00:07:34] All right. So you’re saying there’s well-documented evidence that while the paraquat was being identified as a very dangerous pesticide? Right. Is that the right category of it?

Grace: [00:07:48] Yes.

Liel: [00:07:49] OK, that’s a very dangerous pesticide. The use of it here in the United States continues to increase. Now, where are we standing right now in the cycle of these becoming an actual Mass Tort?

Grace: [00:08:02] So as a matter of fact, it has become a Mass Tort. Recently formed MDL multi district litigation for those of you who don’t know that term. And that’s when there’s enough of essentially a critical mass of people claiming the same or similar issues because of the exposure to paraquat. So it just recently formed an MDL, which is why I wanted to talk about it on this podcast, because I know a lot of people have heard about it. It’s been around I mean, forever. I mean, it was just it was banned in the 80s. So it has been around a long time. But until recently, people became more aware about it, mostly because of the recommendation of the Chemical Review Committee. The paraquat is being recommended for listing in the what’s called the Rotterdam Convention Annex by the conference of parties in 2021. So basically they were saying they wanted to ban paraquat. And so that’s why now a lot more people and it’s also it was rereviewed by the EPA. The EPA makes doesn’t make necessarily decisions, perse, as to whether it’s going to be reapproved, but they do at the same time.

Grace: [00:09:19] So every 15 years they look at these pesticides to see the impact on the human. And what is it how do you say that the wording for it would be like the human impact and then the environmental. Thank you. That’s the word I was looking for. Yes. The environmental impact. And then they look at that in aggregate over the last 15 years and then they decide whether they want to re-approve it or not. So that’s essentially what’s going on with the initial part of paraquat, that’s what it is, and it has just recently formed an MDL. Now, I thought that it would be interesting for us to talk about the heat maps. Right. Sort of like the digital marketing component and where are these clients going to be or potential clients live. And obviously you and I, we kind of happily geek out on locations of things and being able to target certain advertising in the way things are being done so that people we capture the right people in the right location for this particular mass tort.

Liel: [00:10:25] That’s right, Grace. Yeah, it’s always where it starts. The whole build up of a campaign is trying to identify exactly who your target audience is. And geographical locations are massively important, particularly when it comes down to Mass Torts. Now, in this particular event, it sounds like it will be interesting, because there seems to be a very likely opportunity to be able to narrow down things here to very specific geographical locations and industries because of what you said, because it was only accessible to commercial for commercial use. And so do we actually know what industries which companies used paraquat on their operations? Is there some sort of database that can be accessed to identify these? Has these already been published?

Grace: [00:11:18] So yes, because it is a required to have a license to apply it, you can find where it was sold. It’s required by law for them to register where they sell it. And the only caveat to that, and it was part of the webinar that we were I was on with Harris Martin. As a matter of fact, one of the attorneys mentioned that the only issue with that whole situation is that it could be a third party seller. Right. That selling paraquat to the licensed person who’s allowed to apply it. But they’re not a direct vendor or actual working with the manufacturer directly. They’re selling paraquat as a third party distributor or third party seller. Obviously with commission structures or whatever else to sell this pesticide. So, yes, you are required to have a license, but there may be some odd caveats to that specifics. But again, there’s one more caveat to that. There’s locations, right? And you have to know where paraquat is sold. There is a database, you know, agriculturally where they grow the specific crops. And there are specific crops that they use paraquat for, and that includes corn, soybean, cotton. And I forget I think there’s two more specific ones that they use it on, and those are the types of crops that paraquat used on. And they’re only grown in specific locations around the United States. Right. So I don’t know if you’re looking at the heat map in front of you right now.

Liel: [00:12:57] I am, Grace. I am looking at it and I’m you know, a lot of times when we think about our agriculture, we tend to think also quite heavily about the West Coast. Right. But it doesn’t look like here paraquat was a real hotspot there. Of course there are, particularly in California, some areas that potentially could have had a lot of usage of that. But what I’m seeing here is tremendous use of it potentially in the Midwest. Right.

Grace: [00:13:27] I mean, you think about certain parts of the United States like the breadbasket of America, right? The Midwest. That’s where food is grown primarily in the United States because of the land that we have out there. But you also have to think about the crops and where the crops are grown. And so some of the crops are grown out in California, which, you know, I think a lot of us don’t think of California necessarily, like you said, as a growing per say community, because some of us think of like I live in a big city. Right. I live in Miami. So I think of L.A. or I might think of San Francisco. I’m not thinking necessarily about the outer parts of the land that is available in California. And so, yes, they do grow stuff and they use paraquat out in California.

Liel: [00:14:14] Yeah, as we’ve said, the Midwest, basically, it touches every single area. I think what’s interesting to see is the markets where it’s probably not having an impact right now would be New Mexico, Colorado, Oregon, Nevada doesn’t seem to have been affected by this ride. It’s primarily the Midwest that it has like it’s obviously a heat map. Right. So the very, very dark red are the spots where these pesticide has been used the most. And yeah, I mean, you can tell they’re up north and Midwest is just like crazy. Right. So, OK, great. So we know where paraquat has been used. I think we’ve mentioned in previous episodes that one of the diseases that it has been associated with is Parkonson. Correct. Has there been any other developments that lead us to believe that other type of diseases can be as a result or as a consequence of the exposure to paraquat?

Grace: [00:15:18] So yes, and potentially no. At the moment, I have heard other firms getting involved on the symptoms. Right. That lead up to Parkinson’s. But also one more criteria potentially, and that is kidney failure or kidney disease. So I have seen that we are personally not looking at that specifically at this time. We are only looking at Parkinson’s and one or more symptoms of Parkinson’s. And those include things like tremors, slow movement, which is Braddick amnesia, rigid muscles, impaired posture and balance, loss of automatic movements and speech or writing changes which are generally symptoms of Parkinson’s. So for us, those are the two kind of specific things we’re looking for Parkinson’s or Parkinson’s like symptoms. But like you said, I mean, there are other firms and always right until we get closer to litigation and settlements of any kind where they’ll know more about the criteria, meaning the specifics of the injuries in this case, Parkinson’s disease specifically.

Liel: [00:16:26] I know we’ve been following up here in our agency the search volumes of paraquat in terms of a lawsuit or lawyers for paraquat. And as we probably have mentioned in our last conversation in April when we reviewed the most impactful Mass Torts for the first quarter of 2021, we’ve already identified back then increasing interest for paraquat in lawsuits, for paraquat and lawyers for paraquat. So, Grace, I understand you are actively marketing for cases of paraquat. Have you heard what levels of success with these efforts?

Grace: [00:17:11] So, so I would say that, you know, in terms of success, we are seeing some interesting different things come across right, like in terms of the criteria, stuff and exposure. We are seeing that there’s a few people, quite a few people that were exposed prior to 1966. And for those of you that are involved in any kind of mass tort, you know that the difficulty in getting any kind of medical records for somebody that was diagnosed with something prior to a certain time frame, meaning 10 years or more, is it can be a problem. But this one’s a little unique, right. That if you have access to that proof of exposure, which I mean, again, it’s a licensed product so you can prove your work, right. That you were employed by somebody that you had to apply this paraquat for. And you can prove that you were you had the proof of exposure. Parkinson’s isn’t one of those things that disappears. So you should be able to still get a hold of a doctor that diagnosed you or shows somewhere that you have the diagnosis of Parkinson’s. And as long as you have those two things, a diagnosis of Parkinson’s and that you have proof that you were exposed to paraquat, we found that that’s been OK in terms of the marketing. But we did have to go through a little bit of flogging to realize that, you know, there’s obviously going to be people that have been using this for however many years. I mean, this thing’s been out for a very long time. So when we started seeing the numbers or the years like prior to 1966 exposure, we had to close up the criteria just a little bit more to help determine how we can best help people make terms.

Liel: [00:18:57] Yeah it does. And in terms and that’s one thing, right. I mean the qualifiers need to be revisited as the Mass Tort is evolving and as you are getting more details and information about your existing potential clients on these. Right. So that’s another interesting point that it’s worth always mentioning, depending on the Mass Tort sometimes your qualifiers are going to have to be modifying and adjusting as you’re learning more. So, Grace, now with everything we know so far, how hard is it to actually find these victims of paraquat? Is it really turning out to be a Mass Tort that has enough volume for many law firms to get on it, just like Roundup had? Or are we seeing here that it’s a much harder or harder Mass Tort to capture clients for?

Grace: [00:20:00] It’s definitely not as easy as Roundup, right. Because everybody used Roundup. So when you start adding more requirements to the mass tort, like in this case, you have to be a licensed user. You had to have had Parkinson’s disease or diagnosed with one of the Parkinson’s symptoms by a doctor. And it has to be this many years then it’s been a little bit hard, not easy, and not all the way hard. So I’d say we’re doing pretty good. Once we adjusted some of those specifics that we just talked about, years and medical records and understanding that as long as they have proof of use, we can keep moving forward with them as a potential client. Once we adjusted that, it started to pick up a little bit more. But the world of claimants is not huge and I don’t know how much a lot of these people are exactly aware yet, even though. I mean, that’s biggest thing.

Liel: [00:21:00] Well, that would have been my next question is like in your current campaigns and I know a lot of it, you do it through lead generation, you are actually doing awareness strategies in the potential areas where there is more likely for people who are working in the field and to working in particular industries that are using paraquat are getting exposure to this messaging and starting to build this awareness. And so is that still something where you are at or do you feel that the levels of awareness have improved? Now to the point that, you know, more direct campaigns are actually starting to yield results. And by direct campaigns, I mean, your traditional Facebook campaign is have you been diagnosed Parkinson’s and have you used paraquat and the call to action?

Grace: [00:21:57] It’s gotten better. Yeah, it has. It’s gotten better, but it’s still not the amount. Right. It’s just because the pool of clients isn’t there compared to round up, like I keep using Roundup just because of the type of same type of thing in that sense. So the pool of clients isn’t quite there because you have to be licensed to apply it. But with the criteria did open up just a little bit to also those who live around those who apply it, meaning drift cases is paraquat can move. Right. And it’s a spray. So it’s being sprayed on something, let’s say, in greenhouses. And people buy those greenhouses. They have homes. Yeah. And they have neighboring farms that they might not use paraquat, but they’re exposed to it anyway. So it’s a little bigger pool than just a paraquat cases. But it’s not as big as Roundup, let’s say, because it’s not home use, it’s commercial.

Liel: [00:22:56] And I’ve seen a few videos, allegedly videos of the use of paraquat. And it’s not a little pesticide that you’re going around with a little mister and spraying around the fields and the crops. This is a shoot-out with hoses like if it was a fire truck trying to put out a fire, it’s crazy. The amount of solution that could spread into the field is really significant. Right. And so obviously, as you’ve said, it’s not just limited to the people that are actually working the fields. It could potentially be for those who are around. And that’s why I say the awareness campaigns are so important, because you start with a very broad message generating awareness. If you live nearby, if you know someone if you feel that this or that has happened to you and you start presenting all different angles that put you in that consideration, please, and then start the journey of educating them right after they clicked on that and they started reading about it. You’re presenting you follow up with another message as to other things that have been found with regards to what have been consequences to some people that have been exposed to this ride and at that point, maybe some people are considering going to get a diagnostic from a doctor. And so you’re talking about people that may or family members that may not necessarily yet know or have identified that someone in their family that could have been exposed to the air is showing symptoms of Parkinson’s. And yet you need to try to help them solve the puzzle and understand that piece. An important piece could have been where they leave, what kind of work they do, and that sort of things. The one thing I did heard, though, is that paraquat is obviously likely to affect people that, as you’ve said, are in direct contact with the pesticide. What you’re saying here about who lives in the proximity of areas that are treated with it. That’s the first time I heard about that one. But what I heard that got completely dismissed is people who are consuming products, you know, vegetables, whatever that it’s treated with, that that’s very, very, very, very unlikely that there is no real way of making an association there.

Grace: [00:25:26] So I have not heard that either. And the drift cases is what they’re kind of being referred to internally. Those Dreft cases have a maximum sort of zone of 10 miles preferred obviously within a mile of the application areas, but generally they go up to 10 miles for those drift cases.

Liel: [00:25:49] So thank you for the update on Mass Torts and on paraquat. And so, Grace, we’re ready for your takeaways, because I think you did quite a bit here. And why don’t we start with something regarding someone who is still in the verge of considering I’m going to enter paraquat or not, what is the first takeaway for someone who is trying to decide if paraquat is the right Mass Tort for them to diversify into?

Grace: [00:26:19] So the first consideration is, do you have the network or bandwidth to communicate with other people who are immediately involved in this? You know, because obviously things change constantly. And if you never done a talk, first and foremost, you know, there’s a whole process that’s involved in it. So reach out, talk to somebody, reach out to somebody like Edward Lake, you know, reach out to even Liel or myself. Like we can give you some information at least to help get you started. But if you are already involved in Mass Torts and you’re just trying to decide if you want to get into paraquat or not, obviously, look at the science, look at the MDL, look at the information and talk to other law firms that are involved in it. And are the MDL or steering committees. We can help you with that. Obviously, we’ve, Edward, you know Edward Lake has been involved over twenty five years in Mass Torts. So that’s kind of where a lot of my information comes from. And I’m also involved in a lot of marketing and advertising and information of that nature. So that to me would be like not I don’t know if it’s a first take away or my first. This is what you should do if you want to get involved. But if you want to get involved and you’ve never been involved in Mass Torts or this is something you’re looking at, speak to other attorneys who are involved in it because you need to know if this is something that’s worthwhile or not.

Liel: [00:27:47] Yeah, that’s a great point, Grace, I think coming to Mass Torts, and particularly one like this one, that it’s very, very specific, it’s still under development, it’s still getting specified. Right. What the qualifiers are and not the better your network is. If you can draw on a cocounsel or you can actually join a law firm that’s already leading, it is probably going to be more likely to have better results, right?

Grace: [00:28:14] Exactly. Anything that you already know is either already down the line or something that not as brand new or formed in MDL like this has, you have a better chance.

Liel: [00:28:24] All right. Let’s move on to take away number two. Right. And let’s make this one more kind of like a marketing takeaway. What would be your advice for someone who is trying to generate leads internally right now for paraquat based on what you’ve seen in your campaigns? I haven’t yet run campaigns for paraquat. And so while I could give potentially some high level recommendations, I’m very interested in hearing based on your results, what would be your one tip to keep in mind as they’re going after creating their own campaigns?

Grace: [00:29:04] So the most important thing to keep in mind is know where your people are. That is what we talked about from the very beginning. And we constantly talk about that, understand the demographic that’s involved in this particular mass tort. That’s for everything you do. Right? Any case type that you’re involved in, even if it’s an MVA versus, you know, standard PI practice, something that you’re dealing with or something different, you need to know who you’re supposed to be dealing with. So look at the heat maps and look at where these things are applied and then go out and say, OK, create your local like audience and create your audience in that entire type of social media campaigns will do work. You know, as long as you understand what your qualifiers are and who your demographics are, you can use something like Facebook to do a nice little kind of campaign and just test it, test the market. Obviously, don’t start spending, you know, fifty thousand dollars on a campaign that you’ve never done or you don’t know the qualifiers and you haven’t spoken to a lawyer about or other people in the network about. But if you have and you’re one hundred percent sure, you know, this is the criteria I’m looking for and I’m going to run split A B tests and I’m going to do social media campaigns or, you know, display advertising campaigns. They work. They sure do. You just got to constantly keep an eye on it and make sure you stay on the pulse of the criteria as it changes to the moment.

Liel: [00:30:34] Those are very good points. And just going back to the heat map that you’re saying, you know, I don’t know, quite frankly, how accessible this type of information is for the average lawyer. Right. And so one thing that I would recommend is using Google Trends, because Google Trends is a great way of identifying where there is interest over a particular period of time for a particular search query. Right. So if you were to do it right now and I’ve actually just did that as we were talking about this, what has been the trend for paraquat over the past 12 months? Some of the markets that have had the most interest in it has been Kansas, Nebraska, Arkansas, Montana and Idaho. Right. And so these actually happen to be areas that some of them are on the deep red of where the heat map is showing us the usage of paraquat was on twenty seventeen. So it’s a great way to also validate whether the data that you have on a heat map that is a little bit outdated because twenty, seventeen is four years ago. Right can actually tell you about whether that’s where the interest is right now, whether that’s where people are starting to search about it. So there is some tools out there that you can use. And the best part of it all is that Google Trends is one hundred percent free. So, yeah, make sure that you keep that in mind and use it. And again, trends, you can use it for anything. It doesn’t just it’s not just applicable for your Mass Torts. You can use it for a ton of things. This is one of the uses. Grace, last takeaway. And let’s make this one a Mass Torts take away. Right. Because I think maybe some people are not into Mass Torts at all and they just hurt the entire episode and are wondering why did I even hear this or what should I do now with this information? So what’s a good takeaway?

Grace: [00:32:37] I have a very good takeaway for that. As a matter of fact, a lot of people get referral cases. So if you happen to be in Idaho or one of those places and they come to you because you’re a personal injury attorney and they say, hey, I saw paraquat advertising on social media, but you’re my lawyer. I know you. Could you take my case? Guess what you can and just refer it, you know what I’m saying? So I think that that to me would be the best takeaway if you’re not in Mass Torts, you’re not involved and you don’t want to get involved, but you want to help your client because they came to you and said, I need help. Refer out the case, don’t drop it off, don’t get rid of it. This is something that you can help your clients if they’re coming to you because they trust you, reach out to those who are involved in the cases so that your client can get the best help possible for those that are involved in it.

Liel: [00:33:32] And who would those be? So obviously, you know, you’re getting a call. You are already busy with whatever it is that you are and you want to find someone where you can refer to maybe, maybe potentially get some sort of referral fee. Right. If that’s possible. So who should be reached out? What are like who are you calling in those kinds of instances if you don’t have someone in your direct network that is actually handling this particular case?

Grace: [00:34:03] Definitely. I mean, you know, most lawyers like to work within the network that they know. Right. And most of us like to work with the people that we know, like and trust. So if you don’t know any of the people that are dealing with paraquat, reach out to us. We can ask you can ask us, and we will help gear you in the right direction. We’ve been involved in mass torts and has been involved in Mass Torts for over twenty five years, as I constantly mentioned. And he has a network of hundreds of attorneys and many, many law firms that are all involved in different Mass Torts at every level, including himself. So reach out to In Camera podcast and we’ll direct you depending on the mass tort to the right referral network. We can help with that.

Liel: [00:34:49] That’s right, Grace. Leaders of Mass Torts. So we’ll make sure that we have the website on our episode, not just to make it easier for you to reach out to them, whether it’s for a referral or if you just want to get a little bit more of information as to how you can diversify through Mass Torts. So Grace, thank you so much. It’s always fun to talk about different things. And this time we had an opportunity to revisit Mass Torts, which is a topic that we haven’t discussed over the past three months. So I think it was a good idea to hear everything you had to share about this. Appreciate it.

Grace: [00:35:26] Thanks, Liel. You know me. I like to get on this new stuff, so it’s very interesting.

Liel: [00:35:32] Excellent. Grace. So let’s be back next week with another episode. Have fun and be careful with those fireworks. Grace, promise me.

Grace: [00:35:40] I will, of course, be new to you. All right.

Liel: [00:35:44] Take care. Bye-bye.

Liel: [00:35:48] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers, leave us a review, and send us your questions to ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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