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S2 E1: Index


ICP Logo

S2 E1: Index





In the first episode of our second season, Liel and Grace do a rundown of what you should expect from their upcoming conversations and why you should continue listening.

While the who and when is not established yet, we tell you the what and why, and give you a glimpse as to what you can expect from their conversations with other legal marketing experts on topics including the following:

  • On site SEO
  • Off site SEO
  • Local SEO 
  • Social Media
  • Content 
  • PPC
  • Email Marketing
  • Law Firm Culture

As in our previous season, season two will also have special episodes to cover the content during legal and general marketing events that will help you take your law firm’s marketing plan to the next level. So stay tuned because now is when we are getting started.

You can connect with us by visiting our website: incamerapodcast.com

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

Enjoy the show? Please don’t forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!


Liel: [00:00:00] You made it. You listened to all nine episodes of our legal marketing toolkit. By now, you have a general idea of what you need to succeed in 2020. But it’s not enough. And you wonder what’s next. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media, and this is the second season of In Camera podcast where we have the answers to all your legal marketing questions.

Liel: [00:01:00] Welcome to In Camera private legal marketing conversations. And as always, I’m joined by the amaazing Grace, Montealegre. Grace, how are you?

Grace: [00:01:08] Good. How are you, Liel?

Liel: [00:01:10] I’m doing great. Grace, thank you so much for asking. And Grace, it feels like an eternity since we last met because it was actually at the American Association for Justice convention in New Orleans, which was a couple of weeks ago and a lot of things have happened since then. Right. So we completed our first season of In Camera podcast. Yay! We finalized our legal marketing tool kit for 2020. Right. Those were the first nine episodes that we’ve decided to create, kind of like as a baseline for everything that’s going to follow after. And so right now, we’re kind of reaching that point. Where is the everything that’s going to follow after. Right. Is that beginning to our second season, which is extremely exciting and really the time where we’re actually going to start having, I think, some of the conversations that you and I have been looking forward having the most. What do you think?

Grace: [00:02:06] Oh, yeah. This is deep dive time. And so I look at it, we’re gonna get really into everything. And this one, I feel like, as you’ve said, is going to be a little bit of an overview of what we’re going to do. And this is fun.

Liel: [00:02:20] Absolutely, Grace . I think our listeners have been very used to some sort of dynamic in knowing very well what’s going to be happening on our next episode and who and what are we gonna be talking about. I think this time we just need to kind of set the expectation of how the dynamics and how the content is going to be created and distributed over the next few months. Right. And so let’s start by, you know, setting some expectation. So the reality is that we will continue to have conversations about marketing and particularly digital marketing. Right. So that’s that’s the thing that’s really the essence of this podcast, it’s all about marketing. However, we will not stop having conversations about things that actually influence the results of marketing, but may not necessarily be directly associated to marketing activities.

Liel: [00:03:12] And so we’ll continue to have conversations about intake. We’ll continue to have conversations about client experience and case management. And we’ll definitely going to have conversations about culture, your law firm culture, because all of these things will have a direct impact in your law firm growth which at the end of the day is the goal for marketing.

Liel: [00:03:34] So I think it’s fair to say that we should start with the biggest elephant in the room. And when we all talk about digital marketing, particularly, our minds go right into SEO, Grace. And so here’s the thing, right? SEO is such a massive component that I honestly get sometimes frustrated when I’m hearing people talk about it at a very, very high level without necessarily going granular in explaining the different components of it. And I think that’s one of the reasons that have led people to think that SEO is something that shouldn’t be that complex and therefore should not cost a lot of effort and should not cost a lot of money. Right?

Liel: [00:04:22] And I think it’s because we’ve oversimplified the times, the conversation as to what goes in and what makes his SEO be what it is.

Grace: [00:04:29] Yeah.

Liel: [00:04:29] But the reality is that there is so much effort that goes behind it that it’s a necessity for us as digital marketing experts to break it down into all of its components and have individual conversations for everything that actually makes SEO. And so let me tell you something, Grace. I mean, at the beginning of this week, as you may know, a lot of SEOs have been on the edge because there was quite a bit of fluctuation going on with rankings and keywords that are being tracked.

Grace: [00:04:58] Yeah. Google definitely came out with this crazy algorithm update in January, 2020 Liel. I totally understand what you’re saying. And everybody sees these SEO as like a silo, which still doesn’t make sense after this many years of understanding that search engine optimization is for the user. Right.

Liel: [00:05:18] Correct. And so, as you very rightly said, Grace, I think a lot of people have been pretty much on the edge about whether a new and massive update is heading our way. And so what better way than having conversations about how to ensure that you’re consistently following best practices when it comes down to your SEO? And while we’re not going to be able here to educate people entirely on how to execute SEO strategies, we can certainly give them a very good sense of awareness as to what is considered to be a best practice and how to identify red flags. And that’s really our goal, is not for you to get short conversation as to how is it that you can do is all by yourself. Let’s let’s be realistic and set and manage expectations. If you’ve never done SEO, you’re probably not going to succeed at it by doing it by yourself without really having experts backing you up. And particularly if you already have a full time job doing something else. But what you can do certainly is educate yourself about how can you work with your  SEO provider to ensure that you are getting optimal results for your investment. So Grace, why don’t you explain and help our listeners understand how is it that we’re planning breaking down initially this one topic that’s going to be SEO. How are we going to go about talking about this?

Grace: [00:06:49] So, guys, when it comes to search engine optimization, SEO, specifically, we’re going to break it down to a few components, as Liel mentioned. It is very specific. It’s very, can be very granular and it needs to be. So how we’re going to cover it is at the very beginning, we’re going to discuss information on black hat and white hat SEO and Liel didn’t add this to our little notes, but I’m going to throw a little bit more in there on terms of gray hat SEO as well. Right. That middle ground in between the black and white. So just to give you a little overview on what black hat white hat SEO is, black hat strategies are essentially those things that you think of are wrong. OK. Duplicate content do not put duplicate content, invisible text and stuffing keywords. A lot of you might remember this from the early days of Google. People were just adding words all over the page. That’s considered black hat SEO. OK, next, cloaking or redirecting the user to another site or page? You know how many times I clicked on a link back in the early days and it would send me somewhere else? You know how angry that would make me? That is considered a black hat SEO and Google not only frowns upon it, but will take action against you if you’re doing these things. OK. And also another component to it is links from sites with non relevant content. Again, the user experience is key. If you are linking them to a page saying that this content is going to be here and it’s not as an example, you’re selling shoes and all of a sudden they take them to a site where they’re selling something else or nothing even related in terms of the content or the blog. Big problem. Google knows it. Google gets that as a report for them and you will have a problem. That’s considered black hat. Now let’s talk about white hat. The white hat strategies that we’ll be discussing are things like relevant content. Right. The opposite of Black Hat, well labeled images with alternate text, text actually represents what that image shows relevant links and references. Things are linked appropriately to the proper content. And also the words that are involved, including keywords and content are all matching.

Grace: [00:09:11] You need to make sure you use complete sentences with good spelling and grammar. It understands when you did essentially a spin rewrite or right, you take an article and some people will spin them up and it doesn’t make any sense whatsoever because it’s just a duplicate content spun up. OK. That’s not a good thing. That’s Black Hat. So white hat is complete sentences with good spelling and grammar.

Liel: [00:09:31] Now, Grace, I’m actually so excited about all of these because you’re just getting into some good examples. And what I’m hearing here is as we dive into each one of these conversations about SEO, what you’re saying here is that our listeners can expect for us to identify what’s the white hat version of doing that and why would be the black hat version of that as well. And so I think that goes back to what we were just saying at the moment. Even though you’re not the one doing it, at least you’re gonna be able to identify and know and primarily as you explore SEO vendors, understand when a red flag should be raised and you should stay away. Because the reality, Grace, of what you’re saying is that this black hat tactics, while they may seem to deliver results in the short term, they don’t do well on the long term. And you’ll get penalized. And there’s a lot of at stake. Yes. Because you can basically end up losing your entire Web site to that. And so it’s really, really, really important to know what are you getting into? Right. Because there’s really no shortcuts. I think based on what you’re saying, like white hat has the user in mind, has really as a goal building up a Web site that Google once it would be proud to show on top of its page, whereas, black hat is how to trick Google to show your Web site, even though…

Grace: [00:11:04] It’s not relevant.

Liel: [00:11:05] Yeah. It’s not because of the merit of the content and relevancy. And so I think that’s so massive. And I’m very glad that we’ll be taking this approach because it’s not just sometimes good to know what not to do, but also what you should be doing instead. Or the other way around. Sometimes hearing what you should be doing is not enough. You also need to know what to stay away from.

Grace: [00:11:29] Right.

Liel: [00:11:29] So I’m really looking forward to this conversation. So, Grace, as we’re moving forward, then, how are we going to break SEO? Because we’re just saying here to this year has many different components. So what would be the categories? How how is it that we’re going to go about splitting these conversations?

Grace: [00:11:47] As I mentioned, we’re gonna be covering a couple of different topics. And the first category that we’re gonna cover will be related to on-page SEO and on-page SEO essentially concerns all of Google’s ranking factors that are determined by looking directly at the page that you’re trying to optimize, like your headlines, content and page structure. So within on-page SEO, the category, that’s a main category, we’ll be discussing content Html, site architecture and crawling, OK? However, that again is just a main category. And so we will get granular as we keep going along. The next category that we’re going to be discussing will be off-page SEO. And what we’re talking about when we talk about off-page SEO guys is all the variables that Google takes a look at and aren’t specifically or only in your own hands. OK. They depend on other sources like social networks, other blogs in your industry and the personal history of the searcher. OK. So remember, this is all about the user. All right. So that is our second category off-page SEO. Now within off-page SEO, I do want to mention that we will be talking about page ranks, bounce rate, domain age and even links and some personal or specific things like geo targeting, languages and things of that nature. OK. And so that’s all within off-page SEO. That is essentially, our second category. Now the third category that we’ll be discussing that also has a lot of components to it. And I find and Liel may or may not agree with me is one of the most important, particularly for that Google 3 pack. Right. It’s local search, guys. Local search. How do you optimize for local search and get on that Google 3 pack, right. We’re going to discuss how to create a dedicated contact page information about adding maps, making phones clickable and adding schema. And now those are again, more technical and more granular. But I just wanted to very briefly let you know that we will be discussing that under local search.

Grace: [00:13:51] So, Grace, I do want to answer to your question. Yes, I do agree that local search is super important. Right. And that’s why we spend a lot of time on our first episode at like flat out, like first episode on the show was pretty much all about citations, Google my business and how to leverage that, because the reality is that you have greater odds of getting to the top of the page through your Google My Business and through your Web site. But of course, the reality is that citations alone is not going to do it for you. A lot of the variables that play a role in getting you to show on the Google My Business page have to do with what’s happening on your Web site and what authority you have as a brand and what’s happening on your social channels. So there’s so much to cover. And I really think that, you know, to say the least, it’s worth its own episode. So, Grace, basically what you’re saying here is that we’re going to spend three whole episodes talking about different things of SEO?

Grace: [00:14:50] And there’s more.

Liel: [00:14:53] Wow. So that sounds great. Sounds intense. I’m really looking forward to these conversations, particularly because we’re going to have people who are really experts in the field and join us, too, to explain how they’ve made this happen, not just once, but several times for different law firms. So this is exciting, Grace. Now, one of the things that you’ve mentioned, this part of on-site SEO was content. Right. I think, you know, content by itself, it’s its own topic. I think when we’re talking about SEO, we’re primarily looking at the technical elements of posting content on your Web site and how to ensure that Google will know what your content’s about and how the network in general will respond to that particular content, but creation of the content, the creative part of it. It’s a topic of its own. And so are we going to have a conversation about content?

Grace: [00:15:56] So, yes, most definitely content. As you just said, is in and of itself its own conversation, because there are so many elements, right? I mean, it’s all about the storytelling. So we need to have a conversation and tell everybody and let them know all the elements that are involved in it, including how to write and create this compelling content that we want people to read, that they need to share. Right. We need to make them take an action on our content. And the only way to do that is through, you know, consistency, quality. And not only that. Right. Because content is not just text. OK, so content is how do you use video, graphics, where you put your content, all the elements involved in content. So, yes, I mean, we need to have it might even be broken up into two conversations. Who knows at this point? I mean, but right now, you know, Liel and I are planning on having, you know, obviously, as we said, experts on this, because it is a super important topic and it needs to be broken down as as granular as possible for you guys to be able to take action on it.

Liel: [00:17:04] I’m going back to what I was saying at the beginning of the conversation. There’s just this misconception going on as to like, well, you just write blog posts and you’re putting on the on your Web site as if the goal was to actually create blogs for the sake of having them. But in reality, the goal is to actually ride amazing, relevant and engaging content that users will want to read and influencers will want to share and therefore help you build a brand. I mean, Grace, I don’t you know, I don’t want to sound overly dramatic, but SEO, you know, it’s no longer just a mix of technical elements coming together and helping you achieve a goal which is rank high like really it’s who has the ball in to becoming an authority in your subject matter. And that’s not easy. No, that’s not that’s not easy. It has to like. There really needs to be valuable substance. And here’s the other thing. Doing a SEO for a well established brand, someone who’s already known in the market is going to be way more effective than doing SEO for someone who’s starting from scratch, like, that’s the way it is, because Google already knows brands like Coca-Cola, whether they’re doing the best SEO practices or not, which probably they are anyhow, they’re still gonna show up because Google knows and can identify their authority as a brand. And so that translates also for law firms, right. If people are searching your brand name constantly, whether you have a fantastic website or not. The moment that you actually start optimizing for SEO, you’re potentially going to start seeing greater results than someone who’s just coming fresh out of the market. So what I’m trying to say here is that SEO as a stand alone. It’s tough, you need to have brand building efforts surrounding it to really make sure that the results get there. And I’m really curious to hear how our guests will  talk about these particular aspects of the strategy. Right. Because it will definitely influence the pace in which results are going to be seen. What do you think?

Liel: [00:19:33] 100 percent Liel. So for me, I always look at things from top down and then even bottom up. Right. And what I mean by that is like that really does bring us into kind of one of our main topics as well, which is the social media strategy. So any strategies that are created, including the content marketing strategy, everything needs to start from your overall business strategy. What are your goals? Right then from there it comes to your marketing strategy. And in your marketing strategy, you have a social media strategy, a content strategy, so on and so on. SEO is the biggest component of that under SEO needs to be all of those strategies because there needs to be an SEO strategy, right? Because that’s your digital marketing strategy essentially, or the biggest component of it. And so I think in the way we’re discussing this, we need to make sure we constantly tell these people and tell everybody that would listen. It’s not in a silo. It’s not by itself. You need to think about this as an organic, holistic approach to your marketing and that SEO is the biggest component of it, especially as we’re saying. Google came out with a core update on January of this year and that’s only a month, barely two months ago.

Liel: [00:20:50] Grace, absolutely. So I like that you’re bringing up social media because there’s so much to be said. Right. So there’s organic social media presence, which first of all, let’s define social media, primarily Facebook, right, specifically because we’re talking about law firm marketing, Facebook will, across the board…

Grace: [00:21:14] Is more B2C.

Liel: [00:21:16] Yes, will be more relevant for most of law firms. Is there an opportunity for other platforms in social media? Absolutely. And probably down the line, we’re going to also dive into those. But initially, let’s focus on the biggest platform and the one that is more likely to generate results for the average law firm, and that’s without a doubt going to be Facebook. Now, to be honest, we need to really have an honest conversation as to how much room is there for a law firm to succeed at it organically. The reality is that, you know, law firms they are still categorized as businesses for Facebook. And Facebook has a very clear agenda, which is selling Ads. And obviously, if you want your brand to be seen on the timeline and on the Facebook feed, then you need to pay like that’s the way it works.

Grace: [00:22:06] Pay to play.

Liel: [00:22:08] Absolutely. So, Grace, you know what? Let’s not wait until the social media episode or the Facebook episode to take place. Let’s let’s just already give out a take away right now. Grace, OK. Boosting a post, it’s not a Facebook strategy. OK. Facebook is far more complex than just boosting a post, you need to have a clear goal in mind. And so I guess it’s fair to say that when we have a conversation about how to effectively use Facebook ads to grow your law firm and find prospects and leads, we will have a more thorough conversation as to what is effective and what should be avoided. But please, for those who are listening and are just boosting out posts without a specific goal in mind. Don’t!

Grace: [00:23:03] Right, please. How many times have we run across that Lielr? But I’m boosting my posts. Isn’t that enough? No.

Liel: [00:23:11] Yes.

Grace: [00:23:12] No…

Liel: [00:23:12] Just boosting a post is not even enough to start off with. And we’re not saying that it shouldn’t be part of a strategy, but it should be part of a strategy, not just an activity on its own. So, Grace, that social media I’m excited about that conversation, particularly because of who’s going to be part of it. Which if you want to find out who’s it gonna be, you’re just gonna have to tune in. That’s the way it is. Right.

Grace: [00:23:41] That’s right.

Liel: [00:23:42] Grace. Let’s let’s move on to my bread and butter, because, you know, just looking at these topic on the list, my blood starts to boil and I’m starting to sweat. And it’s Google Ads and I just love it because it’s a controversial topic like leave aside that it’s primarily what we do. It’s just a controversial topic. And it always raises very divided opinions. Right. You have those who love it and you have those who hate it. And it’s very simple like. There is no reason why we should over think why some think one way and the other thing the other way. Those who hate it is because they’ve had bad experiences, and the reasons why they’ve had bad experiences is because they probably got into it without having the right partner or because they did it by themselves without necessarily knowing what they were getting into. Right. So let’s put it this way. Google Ads, it’s like sitting at the poker table without knowing how to play poker and then losing. Right. You cannot be really disappointed because you didn’t know what you were doing and so you lost money. Now imagine you get into Google Ads with a pro player on poker and you end up having a good round. Right. I’m not saying that Google Ads is gambling by no means, but you definitely have to have a lot of technical knowledge to make it work.

Liel: [00:25:12] Now…

Grace: [00:25:13] It’s not gambling, but it is called bidding. It does have a smart bidding strategy. So…

Liel: [00:25:19] Absolutely, absolutely. And you need to know what are you actually going to be bidding for in order to see the results that you want to see. And you know, that falls under your keyword research. What keywoeds are you’re gonna be bidding for, what keywords you’re going to add to your negative list. Right. Writing your ads, making them compelling enough, measuring results, understanding what’s happening with every single click that’s happening around. So there’s a lot to cover when it comes down to Google Ads. But here’s one thing I also want to say, right, because there is this argument where people say, well, no, but even, you know, even when you know, what you’re doing it’s just so expensive. Just remember who made Google Ads expensive. It’s not Google, is, as you rightly said Grace is the people bidding for those keywords that relate to those practice areas. And who are those people Grace? It’s the attorneys. It’s the law firms who are bidding. And why are they bidding high? Because we’re making money.

Grace: [00:26:21] That’s right, they know the value of the return on investment. Right. The cost per acquisition, the cost per case. These are the numbers that we’re looking for. And that’s what we’re gonna help you guys with. Right.

Liel: [00:26:30] And that’s exactly the kind of mindset that you should have when you’re getting into Google Ads. If you don’t know what’s the value that you get out of a case, then how would you know how much can you bid? Right. You need to know how much how much you want to generate out of Google Ads. And at the same time, you need to know what’s the value that you get out of each one of those cases. So you can make sure that you control things so that they’re always profitable. Is the simple as that. Grace, right?

Grace: [00:26:59] That’s right.

Liel: [00:26:59] It’s on your power to keep Google Ads profitable to you. Why? Because you set the limits. Use the limits. You don’t have to pay more than you want to.

Grace: [00:27:09] Trade programmatic guys. This is an algorithmic program.

Liel: [00:27:12] And with the right partner in place, that’s going after quality score that’s going out of relevancy. You can actually, without necessarily out-bidding your competitors show hired than them just because at the end of the day, although it’s a bidding platform, Google cares more about the user experience…

Grace: [00:27:33] That’s right.

Liel: [00:27:33] And will, guaranteed, position your Ad ahead of your competitors, even though you’re bidding lower if your ad is more relevant. And so, Grace, I cannot wait for that conversation to take place because I want to tell our listeners all about it. And we just love Google Ads. OK.

Liel: [00:27:54] I was going to say, as you can see, Liel is extremely passionate about this particular subject. This is what he does for a living. So you are going to get a lot of really amazing content. And he even gave you guys a little bit by talking about the quality score. Yeah, we’re going to deep dive into quality score information because that is one of the most important factors that Google looks at. And you know, that’s just a little teaser, guys. A little teaser.

Liel: [00:28:20] 100 percent Grace. Now, what else Grace? Like talking about digital marketing, because really, I mean, from what I’m hearing here, a lot of the central conversations that we’re going to have over the next few episodes are going to be around the elements of digital marketing. So are we missing something?

Grace: [00:28:40] So there’s one more component. And, you know, I think that you and I want to talk about it separately because of the component that this is. We’re talking about email marketing guys. And what we’re going to talk about under email marketing specifically will be how to leverage a newsletter to generate new clients and get referrals. And essentially, what are the elements found in a successful email marketing campaign? We’re gonna be very, very specific. We’re gonna tell you what makes up a good campaign email marketing campaign, what makes up a bad one. Right. Because knowing what’s good is great. But, knowing what’s bad and what not to do is also just as beneficial.

Liel: [00:29:17] Absolutely, Grace. And I think, you know, we’ve already heard several of our guests on our previous episodes, talk about how they’re leveraging newsletters to stay top of mind and generate new cases from existing clients or as referrals. And the reality is that email marketing is still one of the most effective digital marketing strategies out there, it’s the consequence of having had good SEO strategy, good paid strategy, whether that’s through social media or through Google Ads that allowed you to build subscribers, because there is no one to send that newsletter, if you don’t first acquire clients that subscribe to your newsletter or people who are interested in your services that then also subscribe to your newsletter. So I think it makes sense that we first talk about, well, what are the elements that you need to have in place and build a subscribers list. So…

Grace: [00:30:17] You know how many times I’ve heard them say the money’s in the list. I mean, even in Shark Tank, right? Well, they’ll buy somebody out completely because of the insane list that they have.

Liel: [00:30:27] It’s absolutely 100 percent. It’s the value of you can almost say your network. And that alone speaks the ton. Sounds like it’s gonna be an interesting episode, Grace. So Grace, OK. These are all the digital marketing conversations that we’re gonna have. But are we gonna talk again about intake? Are we going to talk again about case management? Are we going to talk again about the challenges of running a law firm? Like are those still going to be part of our conversations?

Grace: [00:30:55] They sure will. We’ll talk about the culture of the law firm. We’ll talk about the processes. We’ll talk about automation, because, again, SEO and all of these topics cannot be in a silo. Right. So naturally, I feel that you and I will end up talking about pretty much anything that’s involved in running your law firm. Right. And that’s everything from marketing to the business to the culture and all the different things that we constantly talk about, you and I, Liel.

Liel: [00:31:21] Great, Grace. And I’m glad to hear that, because at the end of the day, you know, while, yes, we are focusing more on digital marketing in general and digital marketing particularly now. We are still doing marketing with a purpose. And in order to do that, we need to look at all of the other elements that are going to influence the results. And so you cannot, as you rightly said, talk about marketing in a silo. You need to see how the law firm operations and the team around it will actually impact and influence the results that you get out of it. So it’s a necessity. And I think it’s something that, as you rightly say, we’re just going to be jumping in and out constantly because it’s not just about how we influence the results, but how much you have to consider it as part of building up and putting together your strategy, because it all needs to be aligned. Grace, I think there’s so much to look forward to in this second season. Right. And we haven’t even mentioned the special episodes that we’re going to have in relation to events, conferences that are going to be happening. And so we’re going to be disclosing those as the time approaches. But I think it’s fair to say that we’ve created here a calendar with really amazing things and I think the one takeaway for our listeners for these first episode on our second season is stay tuned. Right. Like every week. Don’t stop listening. But there’s one more. I think we should also remind everyone that these podcast is as much yours as it’s ours. Right. Send us your comments. Send us your feedback. Make sure that you use this as a platform to ask questions that you haven’t found the right answers or answers for at all. And let us make a conversation out of it and help you and help others who may have those same problems. What do you think as?

Grace: [00:33:26] That’s right, Liel. So as a reminder and our call to action, right. We’re marketing guys. So this is our call to action. This is for you too. Put, submit whatever questions you have, submit whatever comments you have. As Liel said, we want it to be as a real conversation. Right. That’s what this is supposed to be.

Liel: [00:33:45] Absolutely Grace. So remember, our email is ask@incamerapodcast.com. Thank you so much for tuning in. Thank you for making it with us to our second season. And we’re looking forward for wherever his journey may take us.

Grace: [00:33:59] Thank you, guys.

Liel: [00:33:59] All right, tha

Grace: [00:34:05] Bye…

Liel: [00:34:05] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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