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S2 E10: Lawyers, Mass Torts and Money


Mass Torts and Money
ICP Logo

S2 E10: Lawyers, Mass Torts and Money




Mass Torts and Money

Every year attorneys and legal marketers look forward to Mass Torts Made Perfect (MTMP). It’s one of a kind event where both big industry players and novices get to share two and a half days of intense conferences and social gatherings with one common goal: Growth and diversification.

But like many other events, MTMP’s spring edition was postponed, but that doesn’t mean that Mass Torts are losing relevancy in these times of the pandemic; as a matter of fact, they are more relevant than ever, and in this week’s conversation Grace and Liel explore why.

From answering questions as basic as what are mass torts and what is the difference between mass torts and class actions, Grace explains why a law firm that has the opportunity to invest in advertising, should be considering getting involved in mass torts.

Whether you are interested in finding out about co-counseling opportunities or how to identify potential mass torts at the early stages, this conversation is for you.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

You can connect with us by visiting our website: incamerapodcast.com

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

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Liel: [00:00:00] Attorney Edward Lake once said to try during the ups and downs of the market place, your firm must diversify, diversify, diversify, and never has that statement been more relevant than today. But how do you diversify and what opportunities are out there? I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and this is in-camera podcast. Welcome to our first episode on Mass Torts.

Liel: [00:00:56] Welcome to In-Camera private legal marketing conversations. Grace, how are you today?

Grace: [00:01:02] Good, how are you, Liel?

Liel: [00:01:03] I’m doing great. Thank you very much for asking, Grace. And I’m ready for today’s conversation, right. This particular conversation is probably one that we have planned since the very beginning of the planning of season number two. Right. We knew that this week towards the end of April, we were going to dedicate a series of episodes to talk about Mass Torts. Right. Grace, you remember that?

Grace: [00:01:24] That’s right. Even at AAJ. Right. And some of the other episodes that we talked about, we talked about how we were going to talk about Mass Torts at Mass Torts Made Perfect and how excited we were.

Liel: [00:01:34] Yeah. Very, very excited about the topic altogether. And yes, you’re right. Like the whole idea was around the event with Mass Torts Made Perfect and the event is not actually happening and taking place right now. Mass Torts are still there as an opportunity and they should still it’s a topic that we should still explore. What do you think?

Grace: [00:01:54] Definitely. Especially because of what’s going on.

Liel: [00:01:57] Well, Grace, yeah, I think the timing and work what we’ve been talking about offline with regards to, you know, the value that Mass Torts has in situations like this is quite evident. And so why don’t we involve our listeners into our thoughts in kind of like give them an insight into, you know, with the world of Mass Torts from the very, very basic to what opportunities are there. Okay. And so, Grace, honestly, there is no one better to talk about this topic than you. Right? You’re the V.P. of marketing for a law firm that handles Mass Torts volume right. And so I really would like you to help us understand a little bit better about the Mass Torts world and kind of like take us through a journey of introducing us to this world. Right. And so for those of you few who do not know, Grace not only holds a position as vice president of marketing for Giacovino and Lake, but she also speaks at events such as Pilmma, where last year she gave a keynote that relates to data mining for Mass Torts. Right. And so that was wonderful. I was lucky enough to be sitting there in the audience, Grace. So I’m really excited to finally come to the point where we can talk a little bit about Mass Torts. So should we get started?

Grace: [00:03:25] Let’s get started.

Liel: [00:03:26] All right. Great. So first and most basic question, what are Mass Torts?

Grace: [00:03:31] Ok. So, guys, and I have to say this, I am not a lawyer, so I’m going to be explaining this to you from my perspective, in layman’s terms, not from a lawyer’s perspective. OK. I just have to say that because I do have lawyers who listen. And so I want to make sure they are very aware.

Grace: [00:03:48] I am not a lawyer. And I’m explaining this as a layman and giving you examples and information. As a layman. OK. All right. So what are…

Liel: [00:03:57] Thank you for, thank you for disclaimers.

Grace: [00:04:00] Disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer. The ABA handbook says so.

Grace: [00:04:04] Ok, so mass torts and class actions. OK. I know that we didn’t specify class actions in your question, but I think it’s super important to tell people the difference here. OK. And what are mass torts? So I know most people may have heard of class action lawsuits. But as I said, there is a different type of litigation and that is mass tort litigation. It’s a very similar form of what they called judicial relief. And as an example, they both, both types of procedural actions that are involved are a large group of plaintiffs that have been harmed or allegedly harmed. There are common defendants that are alleged to have caused that harm and a lawsuit that is consolidated into one action and not into individual lawsuits. OK, so that’s why class action and mass tort. So it’s a group of individuals that have been hurt and it’s a common defendant that have alleged to because that harm. OK. So that’s the main thing for both. Now, what is the key difference? The key difference between the two has to do with how they procedurally handled the large group of plaintiffs. So how do they treat them? Well, in a class action, the type of legal action is a lawsuit is filed on behalf of an entire group of people. It means everybody in that class is treated as one plaintiff, not individually. OK, so basically what that means is and the reason this happens is that there’s requirements to fall under a class action and requirements to fall under a mass tort. So a class action, the class is so numerous that they need to basically combine everybody. There are questions of law or facts that are common to the entire class of people. And the claims are pretty much the same across or typical of the claims across all the defenses of the class.

Grace: [00:05:54] So the representative parties will essentially fairly and adequately protect the interests of the class as well. And again, it’s a group, right? So everybody in this group is being treated like one. Now, the difference is in a mass tort. Individuals. These are individual lawsuits that are alleging injury as a result of exposure to a type of product, device, or drug.

Grace: [00:06:20] So like the Essure that’s going on right now is an example, Jewel as an example. Those are mass torts, not class actions. OK, so Equifax data breach, the MasterCard data breach, those were considered class actions because everyone was hurt at the same time for the same thing, essentially. OK. Just to put it kind of plain. Does that make sense legal?

Liel: [00:06:42] It does Grace. Yes.

Grace: [00:06:44] OK. So the other thing to consider when it comes to Mass Tort, it’s one suit in which several plaintiffs may join and allege similar injuries, but arising out of different exposures, the asbestos litigation as an example. And then there’s also the one or more suits brought by multiple plaintiffs alleging injuries as a result of a single event like the 92 gas pipeline explosion in Burnham or like an airplane crash. So some of the prior mass torts in the U.S. specifically have been like asbestos. You know, obviously, some of the pharmaceuticals, medical devices like Essure that were implanted among many, many others. So that is essentially the difference between a class action and a mass tort class action. Everyone’s treated the same. It’s all the same thing. Mass tort, individual injuries, individual plaintiffs, they may have one suit with similar injuries arising out of different exposures from a product, device.

Liel: [00:07:41] Wow Grace, that was very thorough. And so let me translate it into my own words, please, which may be off a little bit but I think for the people who are in the marketing side of things that have not yet had exposure to Mass Torts marketing or so, kind of like a high level of understanding what a Mass Tort and a class action is, is both of them relate to a group of people that have been damaged, in a way or another physically or privately or different ways of harm that may have come out of something, an event that happened. Right. And I think that’s what you’re saying. The difference between a class action is between a Mass Tort. A class action happens to everyone at the same time simultaneously. It’s one event that had an impact on many different people who come together as plaintiffs and file suit against whomever or whatever. Correct?

Grace: [00:08:41] Correct.

Liel: [00:08:41] Kind of?

Grace: [00:08:42] Correct. That’s correct.

Liel: [00:08:43] All right. And then Mass Torts is the same. The only difference is that everybody got damaged or impacted at their own pace, had their own in their own circumstances, in their own world. But the old got the old sure. To one thing in common. But they all got harmed or damaged or suffer some sort of loss because of that. Am I…

Grace: [00:09:03] Correct.

Liel: [00:09:06] OK. Yes. Good. Excellent. So. Right. Well, I I’m actually happy to hear that I was able to differentiate amongst those two, because I’m going to be very honest with you. At times I’ve struggled trying to understand, like, OK, what what’s going to fall under Mass Torts and what’s going to fall under class action. So your explanation now help me actually understand and probably moving forward, I’m not going to be making those mistakes from choosing one and the other.

Liel: [00:09:33] Great. OK. So now that we know what they are. Who is a candidate for getting involved in the litigation of Mass Torts or is at some level involved in a Mass Torts case? Right.

Grace: [00:09:50] So that’s actually a little bit of a loaded question. And I’ll tell you why. So any attorney… So I’ll answer with one answer and then give you a specific reason why it’s a little bit of a loaded question. Any attorney in theory can be a mass tort candidate. Why? Because you have to be an attorney to co-counsel. We’ll discuss Cole counseling in a little while. But an attorney can in theory, including corporate lawyers, can be involved in mass torts, primarily the people that are involved in Mass Torts are personal injury lawyers. Why is that?

Grace: [00:10:24] That’s because they’re used to dealing with injuries and they can understand a little more implicitly what it means to be involved in a mass tort at the injury level because they’re used to seeing, let’s say, motor vehicle accidents and understanding that there are specific criteria for that, whereas a corporate lawyer may not really know anything about that, but he can he or she can still get involved as, let’s say, what we call passive. And we’ll explain that a little later. But you have to be an attorney to be involved in mass torts. Those are essentially an ideal candidate, would be someone who possibly understands it to a degree and has the money essentially to get involved in it, because these cases last a very, very long time.

Liel: [00:11:09] Okay, Grace. So if I know of a very successful immigration attorney has lots of money. OK. And I don’t. And again, I mean, I want you to help us understand here. Do you really need that much money to get involved or not? So you’ll let us know. Right. Just listening to what you’re saying here. I know an attorney. He’s an immigration attorney. Lots of money. He’s successful. Looking at diversifying. Right. Could he get involved in Mass Torts? Theoretically.

Grace: [00:11:37] Very much so. So, again, I’m not a lawyer, guys. So whatever you do, I’m not an accountant. I’m not a CPA. I have to give this disclaimer before I make this comment or sentence here. If you have additional money as a leftover at the end of the year that you don’t want to pay taxes on necessarily or you want to reinvest. It is really what it is. You’re reinvesting the profits into your firm and you have, let’s say, a hundred thousand. OK. It doesn’t have to be a hundred thousand, but that is, generally speaking, let’s say 50 to 100 thousand is a good amount so that you can purchase or co-counsel on contracts for mass torts and diversify your portfolio of mass torts. Because we all know in the stock market and even in cases, you have to diversify yourself. And that’s including diversifying your practice areas like you’re saying this immigration attorney wants to diversify because he has additional money. He knows I have to diversify. You can’t just be this type of attorney necessarily. Why? Well, the pandemic is honestly showing proof positive of why you cannot just do one thing. Right?

Liel: [00:12:44] Yeah. Yeah. No, actually, very good point, Grace, and very much on point with immigration attorneys right now considering some of the most recent actions that the administration has taken with regards to immigration. But Grace, going back to the mass torts part of it. So basically what you’re seeing here is mass torts is kind of like the stock market, but only for attorneys.

Grace: [00:13:11] Only for attorneys, correct. Only ones that can get involved.

Liel: [00:13:15] Yeah, that’s very powerful to have your own stock market to invest in. So. Yeah. And so you say you initially a reasonable investment to be made could be between 50000 to 100000 dollars. That should get you in the game.

Grace: [00:13:31] Correct. That’s what I’ve seen. I mean I’ve seen as the lowest 25thousand. However, generally speaking, you can’t get into a diversified portfolio with that amount.

Grace: [00:13:40] And, you know, it’s again, like looking at it from the stock market perspective. You can understand that. You ride with blue-chip stocks, and that’s essentially what these are. You have to buy at a higher rate or a larger amount so that you can put a piece in each and you’re not like buying two contracts for this and two contracts for that. And then what are you going to get at the end if both fall-through, you know, I mean, or one falls through. Meaning it doesn’t end up paying out. Again, this is kind of like the stock market. It’s actually a little more like gambling, right? Because well, I’d say it’s more like the stock market because you can actually determine based on certain criteria and knowing from a firm like Gacovino and Lake that has been involved for this long for over 25 years in Mass torts. It’s not that they know or can predict perse, but they’ve seen enough of these types of cases over so many years that they understand what could possibly hit or what couldn’t. Right. Based on the criteria, based on the actual tort and essentially of the injury that occurred.

Liel: [00:14:45] So Grace, I write down my check for fifty or 100 thousand dollars and I hand it over to whom?

Grace: [00:14:55] So, again, only attorneys can co-counsel. Right. So.

Liel: [00:14:58] Yeah,

Grace: [00:14:59] I’m extremely biased.

Liel: [00:15:00] I’m sorry. You know, you’re right. You’re right. I was playing the role of being an attorney.

Grace: [00:15:04] Oh, I know. Yes. I thought that’s what I was thinking. You’re still the immigration attorney in my mind right now. Right.

Liel: [00:15:10] Yes, I’m an immigration attorney. A very successful one must say. And so I write down a check for $50000. And who do I hand this check to? Who do I partner with?

Grace: [00:15:20] Ok. So it’s a little more than that, obviously. But let’s say you’ve spoken to whoever it is. You understand what it is you’re getting involved in. You know what torts you want to be involved in.

Grace: [00:15:30] You’ve talked to the person that you’re going to co-counsel with. Again, I am extremely biased. I am not a lawyer, but I am very biased towards Gacovino and Lake, we handle co-counsel. And we’ve been doing it for a very, very long time. We do handle mass tort contracts and we’ve been doing it again for such a long time that, again, I’m very, very biased towards them. So you would essentially partner with someone like Gacovino and Lake and you would hand over the check to them to handle the mass torts process for you. Depending on what level or how much you want to be involved. OK, because if you don’t want to be involved in the litigation as an example, which generally speaking unless you can handle the cases, why would you. Right. Or if you’re not a litigation attorney or you’re not on the steering committee that actually handles these mass torts, you need to co-counsel with somebody and partner with someone like Gacovino a d Lake.

Liel: [00:16:28] So it’s not very common for attorneys to actually get involved in the litigation part of the mass torts or class actions? They usually come in as financial investors more-so than actual litigators that are going to work on the case.

Grace: [00:16:45] Yes, that is correct. And it’s actually mostly mass torts, not class actions. Why? Because class actions are the same thing across the board. Those usually you just submit, you know, certain things and the trial’s, the trial.

Grace: [00:16:57] So but a mass tort that has a lot to do with the trials, you know, and I’m not saying class actions don’t, but mass torts is so specific to that that you would generally partner with somebody who can, who has the network to handle the litigation or somebody that’s been on the litigation from the very beginning. You know, like some really big firms that we all know that most of us know, I’m not necessarily going to mention, you know, for privacy reasons. But they’re on the steering committees. They’re the ones that are litigating and have been litigating from the very beginning. Like Tauke, you know, Tauke been around for almost eight years now. Johnson and Johnson is a pretty hardcore company to go after. So you need somebody who has been dealing with it, understands it, and that’s what you co-counsel with. And of course, you end up splitting fees based on that. Whoever the trial attorney is, whoever’s handling your cases or you’re co-counseling with. And it’s always fair. Honestly, I you know, from the fees, I’ve always seen it be, you know, a small percentage for the person that’s handling the marketing. And then, you know, a majority obviously goes to the trial attorney and then, you know, the other majority goes to the person who’s actually investing in it. So, yeah, that’s how we kind of approach it.

Liel: [00:18:14] We’ve just used the analogy of comparing mustards to the stock market. Right.

Grace: [00:18:19] Right.

Liel: [00:18:19] And in the stock market, you can win or you can lose because sometimes stocks go up, sometimes they go down and they crash crushed. So is that to be expected? Can that happen to mass torts? Like you go in, you invest as you’ve said, you’ve done your research, you find a particular claim that you don’t know for whatever reason you’re gravitating to, you’re investing in it. It can end up also just not yielding profits?

Grace: [00:18:48] Yes. Which is why I say at the very beginning of this, again, I’m not a lawyer, but I said at the very… And I’m not a CPA. But at the very beginning and this is why I mentioned if you have the additional money to reinvest in your company, you can use it if you don’t, I wouldn’t suggest doing that. Because this is like a stock market where. It could hit or it could fall. So you really need to look at your finances and make sure that this is something that you can invest in the long term.

Liel: [00:19:17] Ok, so Grace, thank you. I think by now we all understand very well, fairly decently how mass torts work and what are the considerations that one should have. Now, how do you go about the process of researching, finding out co-counsel, finding out what mass tort opportunities are out there? What would be a good starting point for someone? Right.

Liel: [00:19:41] So obviously it’s to be expected that if you’re a personal injury attorney, you’re probably getting marketed for these. There are other law firms who do co-counseling and such that are proactively reaching out to personal injury attorneys, inviting them to participate. So that’s one way to find out. Right. If you’re getting marketed to or not, will do your due diligence, research, have the conversations, and see whether it’s appealing and convincing enough for you.

Liel: [00:20:11] But if you’re not exposed to any of these, how can you get. How can you connect with people who do these and get a little bit more information on and potentially get involved?

Grace: [00:20:25] So obviously right now they can’t go to actual physical shows at the moment that would help them understand a little more about mass torts or even know what, who they can partner with or who’s involved in it. So I have a really good suggestion and you and I were talking about this before our podcast and that’s MTMP or Mass Torts made perfect connect. They had been publishing webinars almost every single week recently and they’ve been phenomenal in terms of explaining what they can do, how to do it. And if I were you, I would jump on those and just start learning. And, you know, you can always reach out to MTMP. They are more than happy to kind of show you the ropes and tell you, OK, this is how you can co-counsel. And of course, I’m always going to say to you, everyone on here, you know, if you want to send even an e-mail to us, ask@in-camerapodcast.com and you want to know who should I call counsel with? Of course, I’m going to tell you, Gacovino and Lake. But you know, of course, again, do your due diligence. You know, research, Gacovino, and Lake research these other firms that, you know, mass torts made perfect may mention to you as partners that they’ve been involved with. You know, look it up. You know, I mean, Levon Papantonio, everyone knows him. Right. And his firm. That firm, Mike Papantonio’s Levin Papantonio, that firm has been involved in mass torts forever as well. You know, we’ve partner with them. We’ve done their part of our network as well. And I can say that because obviously they’re part of mass torts made perfect. So, you know, do your due diligence. But I would attend MTMP connect webinars and start asking for resources from them. They’ve been around a long time as well. And, you know, they can tell you who’s involved and who does B2B essentially right. a business-to-business law firm, the law firm, co-counseling.

Liel: [00:22:14] Yeah. So thanks for that Grace. And so it sounds like mass torts made perfect or MTMP as you call it it’s a good group, association to get informed, get connected, network and kind of find different possibilities of getting involved. Right. And so Grace. What are, you know, how would you go about choosing a particular mass tort or a class action?

Liel: [00:22:45] Because you said one point, you’ve talked about a portfolio like you can kind of like invest in different ones. Right. And how would you like do you, how would you decide, OK, I want to choose this one and that one and want to put this much money on these and this much money on this other one. What’s the process of making those decisions? What are you looking at? What are things that are to be considered when selecting a mass tort?

Grace: [00:23:16] Ok. So I’m going explain it to you again from a marketing perspective, less of a from a lawyer perspective with a little bit of legal ease in there.

Grace: [00:23:25] So the way it was explained to me, even when I first started at Gacovino and Lake was the process is pretty lengthy and you hope that you will understand and or see the writing on the wall. What does that mean? So I personally have signed up for FDA recalls, FDA product recalls, device recalls. And what’s the third one? And medical recalls, right? Why? Because they’re the first ones that are going to post if something if there’s a client adverse action. OK. So I have the benefit of having worked for 10 years for an import-export law firm that actually handled FDA and, you know, Food and Drug Administration recalls classifications and everything. So I know where to go. And I know what to look for when I go there. I’ll give you an example. Zantac, everyone was kind of aware of Zantac when they posted it on these different content marketing sites. Right. When it was recalled as a whole. I believe it was on barely a week ago, right in April just now. But about a month before that, there was an FDA initial recall for the ones with elevated levels of NDMA. If I’m not mistaken, and that initial recall sort of triggered the notification to the attorneys that know, hey, Zantac, is going to be the next one. They may have even seen before that if they follow up on the client adverse actions, because all of that’s reported publicly on the FDA.gov site, they may have if they followed that, they would have seen that there was a large amount of client adverse actions being posted against Zantac at that time. If they can look into that and a little bit of the science of it, they’ll notice this is something that’s been out for how many years forever, right? Zantac’s been out for a very long time. And so we have essentially, what, like twenty plus years of data to go against to find out with the people with a prescription that I’ve taken Zantac prescription. You can kind of trace that back. So that’s how I kind of approach it. I’m sure, you know, Gacovino and Lake approach that maybe slightly differently, knowing for twenty-five years how to look at it. But that’s how what I’ve noticed and what I’ve seen. The writing kind of comes up on the wall. And if you can get in early, you obviously will get better cases because you’re getting one. You’re scratching the surface first and they will cost less.

Liel: [00:25:57] So that’s it. So the guys that were starting to create awareness in marketing on Zantac a month ago potential they’ve already connected with some of the most prominent cases that could be coming out of these. And so they’re already potentially signed up. Is that…

Grace: [00:26:18] Correct.

Liel: [00:26:18]  Basically what you’re saying?

Grace: [00:26:21] Correct. And so that’s going to drive up the cost… Excuse me. And it’s gonna drive up the cost per click and or cost per case or cost per acquisition. Whatever you’re doing, it’s going to continue to drive it up. Right. Because there are more people in it.

Liel: [00:26:34] Yeah, absolutely. You’re right on it. As something gains more value, obviously it increases in cost when it comes down to driving traffic for it. So, Grace, you know, a little bit of a unique question here. So, Zantac, right. I mean, I remember when I lived in Europe, Zantac was everywhere. Right. It’s not just a drug that’s here in the U.S. Do mass torts go at international levels, can that be the case? And, you know, are those waters that can be navigated through or it gets complex?

Grace: [00:27:10] It gets too complicated that the laws are so different across different countries, different, you know. I mean, we even have a statute of limitations per state for these different torts that we have there. We’re involved in it. So, you know, it’s, the laws are different. They may not even have mass torts in some of these countries. So, no, it’s, that’s U.S. based only national.

Liel: [00:27:33] Ok. Thank you very much for shutting down my question. So, Grace, you’ve mentioned a few of the current opportunities right now. You’ve just mentioned Zantac. Right.

Liel: [00:27:45] So it seems like that’s already out there in the open coming in strong. Which other ones are already well-established mass torts that we can, you know, share with our audience?

Grace: [00:27:59] So those of you who have been involved in or don’t know talc. Right, the talcum powder. Those are pretty cost-prohibitive. And because they’ve been out for probably eight years now and Johnson and Johnson have enough money to go after every single case individually and keep dragging it out. But talc is still viable. Obviously, the criteria you need to partner with somebody like Gacovino and Lake or someone like that understands the very specific criteria that are being accepted or what kind of cases have actually settled. So talc is still a viable issue, tort, but it’s expensive to get into right now because it’s been out so long. Now there’s another one. So we’re involved. Not us personally, but we’re involved with other firms that are handling Essure. However, and this is a major, however, Essure is ending because of a Bayer tolling agreement at the end of May. So it’s not worth it unless you already have something in the bank. You know, a statute of limitations included. And then if you can go after them right now, organically, I say do it. But you need to have everything in before a certain timeframe. So if you can’t leave that one alone again, guys, I must repeat, my disclaimer, I’m not an attorney. So all the advice I’m giving you is just from my own experience. I will have an attorney on here at some point during these, the different sessions that we’re having to explain from that point of view and that perspective. Let me see. What else, have you heard of any other ones?

Liel: [00:29:44] You know what, Grace? I’ve heard of a lot of things, but I want to ask you about those that have been out there forever. Right. And we see them on TV every single day in every single commercial break. Mesothelioma, right?

Grace: [00:29:59] Oh, yeah.

Liel: [00:30:00] Asbestos like, will these ever ned? Like, are these going to go on forever? What’s the story behind those?

Liel: [00:30:07] Because the way you were talking about mass torts, it almost feels like, you know, there is like an incubation period when you need to be good and alert and get right on it at that point. Right. Then it’s you know, it gains momentum and increases, increases, increases. And then as you were just saying about Essure, it starts kind of like a decline. It comes to the point when it’s going to… Well, not necessarily a decline and such, but it’s just kind of as losing momentum. It’s going to come to settlement like it’s already. If you were not in already, it’s too late to get in right. But then, as I said like there are these older ones that they’ve seen that they’ve been going on forever. What can you say about that?

Grace: [00:30:48] So there’s… I was heavily involved in statistical analysis. So I look at it from that perspective. There are many many variables involved in each tort. It goes everything from the actual company that’s involved in the tort. So, you know, Roundup. I use Roundup as an example, Monsanto. Over time they found that roundup, the commercial use was obviously the easiest to prove because they had receipts. And so over time they realized those are the best cases to go after. So but Monsanto’s the primary company against that one. Whereas in talc, it’s Johnson and Johnson Johnson and Johnson has, I don’t know how many torts out right now. Right. There’s a lot of torts against them right now. And they’re a massive company. So you have to kind of think about that and realize that if there’s a ton of torts against a specific company, how realistic is it going to be that they’re going to settle soon? Not! It’s no.t So, and again, Johnson and Johnson, because they’re involved with talc, that’s why that thing’s not been settled and it’s not going to settle for probably another two, three years. And that’s the hope. So you just have to look at it from all the different variables that are involved. When it comes to a specific tort as to the ones that have been there for a long time.

Grace: [00:32:12] And else I’ll actually specifically talk mesothelioma because I thought that was very interesting. And I actually asked Edward Lake of Gacovino and Lake that because I was like, why is Meso still a viable case? And he said, well, they’re actually firms that that’s all they do. And some of these older cities, like even New York City, they still have asbestos and they have to do asbestos remediation on buildings because their buildings are so old. So it is still potentially a case, asbestos, mesothelioma for people to get hurt and actually be involved in that. And those cases are big, big, big bucks. So the guys that got in early on mesothelioma, probably still continue it. And most of them have diversified their practice areas to go for other things like personal injury. You know, maybe motor vehicle accidents and things like that. But the ones that have been out there a long time. If you can capture those organically, meaning you create a page on your Web site and you know, you use resources and content marketing to grab those organically. Mesothelioma cases worth a lot of money.

Liel: [00:33:21] Okay, Grace. Listen, I hear you’re loud and clear. And so I like that you’re starting to pivot the conversation towards, you know, how do you get these cases? How do you market for them? And you cannot talk about mesothelioma without talking about the free e-book that’s always offered in every single commercial about mesothelioma. Right. And so, is it the free e-book, the way to go? What works? How do you market for mass torts? What’s the right way of doing it? Right? Because I don’t know. I’m assuming a lot of people may not know that they’re the medication they are taking or one of the products that were, they’ve been using at work or for other purposes is actually harming them. So how, what’s the process of raising that awareness, converting the people? Where do you advertise? How do you make it happen?

Grace: [00:34:14] So that’s another somewhat loaded question, I guess, is because there’s so many places that you can do and you can advertise and there’s a lot of places that you can start. Right. It depends on what you are ready doing. If you’re readily involved in TV, let’s say. Right. You have tons of TV advertising, you have tons of radio billboards. This that the other I would attempt to swap out a piece of those commercials for because they already know you, your brand name for mass tort commercial, you know, or what I’ve found some other firms are doing, they just add it to the P.I. Commercial they already have where it says if you took all these drugs or if you took one of these call us too, because we may be able to help you with a case. Right. So it’s a motor vehicle accident commercial. But then at the very end, for five seconds, it says we handle cases that are involved with Zantac, hernia mesh, TVM, that kind of stuff. So there’s a combination of things you can do. And again, if you’re already on TV, I say it as a component. See where that goes because you can start driving some organic cases to yourself. All right. Again, understand what the criteria are before you do that. Don’t spend money in a commercial unless you have a strategy in place in which anybody doing commercials already knows they have to do that anyway. Right. So.

Liel: [00:35:38] Yeah. Yeah. Grace. And I guess also I mean, this is all extremely valuable and I appreciate the way that you’re explaining it. But going back to the cool counseling, who needs to advertise for these?

Liel: [00:35:50] So when you are doing as an attorney, you’re co-counseling with somebody else. You still need to participate in the marketing part of it or with your investment. You already are going to be backing up all the general marketing efforts for the mass tort marketing, who’s responsibility is it going to be to coordinate that. Sorry. And probably that should have been my first question, so let’s rewind.

Grace: [00:36:13] No, no. I was going to say that’s such a good question. Actually, that’s perfect, because that’s where it should start, right? Who pays for what? So if you’re investing in mass torts, in co-counseling with a mass tort firm and what you’re doing is you’re just a passive investor, meaning you just want to hand the money over to the law firm, your call counseling with and they handle everything else. You can do that. And that’s generally how it works. When you co-counsel, you hand it to a firm that knows what they’re doing in mass torts. They handle the marketing. They handle the contracts. They handle the processing of whatever they purchase in terms of leads. And a lot of times you can even invest in a campaign which could be a component of a TV advertising campaign, that you’re working with a group of lawyers to get the leads for those and then convert them into contracts. But generally speaking, if you just give the money to a firm that you’re co-counseling with, you are essentially a passive investor. And it does work like the stock market. It runs up and it gets processed and it gets taken care of. And then you see the money at the end. Or you don’t.

Liel: [00:37:20] Okay. Understood. So there are different kinds of partnerships. But generally speaking, if you’re investing directly, you’re just putting out money and then others will take care of these. Right?

Grace: [00:37:32] That’s right.

Liel: [00:37:35] But there is also a partnership where you can come in by actually generating your own claims that then go into I mean, I’m sorry for expression, but kind of like the pot. Right. The list of claims that are going to be part of the mass tort. Correct. OK, excellent. Good. So you’ve put a lot of attention already on TV. Apparently, you know, these are claims at many times the national level. They need to be widely spread in terms of information. So mass media does come as a lot of common sense. But what about digital platforms? How do you, how do you go about these through digital platforms?

Grace: [00:38:20] So that’s why I mentioned TV first only because if you’re already involved in TV, add it is a component and that’s great. But if you’re not involved in TV. Digital is 100 percent the way to go. And you can leverage Facebook any of the social media platforms.

Grace: [00:38:35] Some are better than others depending on the tort right because it has to do with demographic. You and I both know that implicitly, right, Liel? Because we’re marketers. So we know that the platform is very specific to demographics. And that’s the same with the tort. So they have found that Facebook and, you know, x social media is a company that does that. And I’m sure most of you guys have seen the emails that come from them. And I think Nanato media, if I’m not mistaken. Do you handle that as well?

Liel: [00:39:03] Well, yeah, yeah. We do mass torts for some of our clients.

Grace: [00:39:06] Yeah. So that’s what I thought. I was almost 100 percent sure you did. I thought you did. So, you know, like Nanato media is an example. They do Facebook advertising to get it for you. They handle all of it. You just pay them and then they’ll bring in some mass tort leads.

Grace: [00:39:21] But again, I was focusing on TV if you already had a TV component. If you don’t, you need to go within my opinion, again, I’m not a lawyer and I’m not a CPA. PPC personally, that has been the best in terms of the cost per conversion. Why? Because on Facebook, people can still comment and be nasty trolls.

Liel: [00:39:42] Yeah, Sure. I mean, of course, you know, when you’re participating in social media, you are involving yourself in an open conversation and people are going to be opinionated about it.

Grace: [00:39:54] Very.

Liel: [00:39:54] And then there’s the thing that you and I have been saying pretty much forever. It’s a very delicate thing to do on social media, to come up selling people. Even when what you’re trying to do is helping them.

Liel: [00:40:07] You know, there’s gonna be those who are going to see it as disruption of what the platform is intended to be, which is a place of entertainment, a place to be social, and they’ll just be nasty for the shake that you are, you know, coming up to the platform offering help. They may still not appreciate it. It doesn’t matter how appropriate your messaging is, it will still come across as the wrong place to come and do so. So a lot of tactics, to a lot of very good segmentation may help, but you cannot eliminate that 100 percent. Grace, I do, I do agree with you on digital platforms because not because we were an agency that does it, but because that’s what consumers do.

Liel: [00:40:53] You go when you search, you go in asking Google, right. What are you know, what are the consequences of ingesting Zantac or what are you know, because you’ve started hearing about these things? But then when you actually want to take action about them, when you actually want to know how could this be affecting you personally, you go to Google and you ask these specific questions. And so I totally agree with you. You want to be top of the page whenever that person is going to see a result. Right. And if, even if it’s not if that is a good response to what they’re actually asking they’ll click on it. Right. Whenever you see people sometimes are a little bit biased when it comes down to ads, they say, no, no, I hate ads. I hate ads. I always skip through them. I don’t want to see it. You don’t like them when you’re not buying. When you’re buying you liked them because they’re the easy solution. Right? And so that’s what people sometimes cannot compartmentalize. It’s how their behavior changes according to what actions are performing. But with that being said, even if you were going down the organic route, you want to make sure that you were creating. Contents to answer questions because people are going to want to get that information and then find what is it, the next step that they need to take. And many times well TV, radio or even magazines, billboards can be good at generating general awareness. They are not that great into answering questions that come after you would actually become aware. Oh, there is this thing going on, right? And so I totally see your thought process from saying, you know, TV, if you already have that established, it’s a great starting point, make some noise, bring some awareness, but then make sure that whenever they go and start searching on these, you’re the one who comes up. Right. So going back to multi-channel omnichannel, it’s all about, you know, starting the conversation somewhere and then taking it somewhere else and then potentially convert there or maybe on a third other platforms where it’s going to happen.

Liel: [00:42:58] So, Grace…

Grace: [00:43:00] I want to mention one thing I think is super important, what you just said about, you know, having content. So, yeah, you can’t just throw out an ad on PPC and then not have a landing page for it to go to with content that explains what it is that you’re trying to look for. Right. Because that’s the reason they clicked. So you have to have content on your Web site 100 percent. I agree with you, Liel. I just wanted to make sure that people understood that you don’t just put up an ad and then expect that people are going to click on it and they’re going to convert. Now, you need to have the content, that answers the questions. And the best way to do that for the most part, I’ve noticed, is frequently asked questions. People love ordered lists. People like frequently asked questions and things that specifically answer their exact question in normal terms, like plain phrases.

Grace: [00:43:47] You know, I don’t know how many people know about the flesh reading ease, but it needs to be easy to read, easy to understand, and answers their question directly to Liel’s point.

Liel: [00:43:56] Yeah, I totally agree with your Grace. Your landing page needs to give all the right and relevant information that they need at that point. Right. Enough for them to be willing to convert. Right. And now I totally agree with all of the elements that you added to the landing page Grace, but I’ll add an additional one. I think, you know, if you can actually produce and throw in a video there, put it, because a lot of people will potentially appreciate more watching a video that gives them more thorough information or walks them through whatever is there in written form and therefore then decide to convert.

Liel: [00:44:31] So as more options you’re giving them to go through and get their questions answered to lead them to conversion, the better result and better conversion rates you can expect. So, Grace, I think for a first initial conversation on mass torts, we’ve covered a lot. Thank you so much for giving us so many insights, for explaining to us in a simple way to understand something that is as complex as mass torts and class actions.

Liel: [00:44:58] And Grace, we’ll have followed up conversations to this. But for these one, what would be three takeaways that we can share with our audience and they can take action.

Grace: [00:45:10] So the very first thing is if you don’t know much about mass torts or even if you do and just want to learn more, go to mass torts made perfect MTMP.com and register yourself for the empty MTMP Connect webinars. They have them going every week. I see the emails all the time and they are very detailed in explaining the different torts and how you can get involved.

Grace: [00:45:34] That’s takeaway number one.

Liel: [00:45:36] Okay. Sounds good. So mass torts made perfect connect. Right now there is a way to still get involved, even though their event was scheduled for this week got postponed. They are still taking steps to make sure that they are putting information, raising awareness, and you can get involved. And I believe Grace, these webinars. They’re, they do not cost. People can just sign up and participate without necessarily having to make any upfront payments or not.

Grace: [00:46:04] Yes. The last I looked, they were all free. Correct.

Liel: [00:46:06] Excellent. Sounds great. OK. Take away number two.

Grace: [00:46:09] So the second one is diversify, diversify, diversify. And if you’ve listened to us throughout this whole thing, that means making sure you diversify across the different mass torts if you do get involved. And that even means, if you can, diversifying the way you if you’re not co-counselling with somebody, diversifying the way you go after the mass torts by using digital platforms.

Liel: [00:46:33] Yeah. So both your marketing, both your portfolio of mass torts. But even at a more basic level. Right Grace? I mean, I think once you were mentioning these at the beginning of the conversation is that one of the things that we have learned about COVID 19 is that, you know, if you only have one funnel for your business and that funnel gets disrupted, you can get hurt very, very badly.

Liel: [00:47:04] Right? And so we’re talking about personal injury attorneys. We know now that in many places, in many cases, accidents have dropped by as much as two thirds over the past month or so. And so having diverse funnel that gets you different revenue opportunities, even though they are for the long run at least keeps you better protected and secured even during these times.

Liel: [00:47:35] Would you say that’s a good way of looking at this?

Grace: [00:47:39] 100 percent. No, I agree with you completely.

Liel: [00:47:41] Yeah, it’s like you’re 401k.

Grace: [00:47:43] Yeah that’s right.

Liel: [00:47:45] OK. Excellent, Grace.

Liel: [00:47:46] So diversifying in what would be our last and third takeaway?

Grace: [00:47:51] Co-counsel, because co-counselling will help you leverage the different ways of getting involved in other practice areas. Right. So as we said, diversify even your practice area. And that includes co-counselling, because if you’re not confident and or comfortable to go after some of these cases on your own, then that’s OK. You can co-counsel with a firm that has dealt with this before. That’s been doing it for a long time. You know, obviously, do your due diligence to figure out who they are. But, you know, firms like Gacovino and Lake have been doing this for a very long time and they can show you some of the other networks that they have. And so just do your due diligence. But co-counsel, I would suggest it as a takeaway that you can actually do right now to help you through this pandemic, honestly.

Liel: [00:48:40] Yeah. Excellent. Well, very well, so good places to find formation of co-counselling Grace. Well, of course, Gacovino and Lake, so directly with you. And also in mass torts made perfect, MTMP Connect. It’s a good source also to create more awareness, generate more awareness for, about the topic and find what opportunities are out there. Does that sound right?

Grace: [00:49:06] It sounds right. So just one thing I know Gacovino and Lake can be hard for people to spell. So we do have an alias URL, called lawyers with an s U.S., a dot com. So if you go to lawyersUSA.dot it takes you to Gacovino and Lake.

Liel: [00:49:19] Oh, that’s great. So we’ll make sure we’ll put that in the episode note so our listeners can find out. Also in a simple way. Grace, thank you very much for your time. This was a great conversation. It was a great introduction to mass torts. And honestly, I’m looking forward to the next one, which we’re going stay in this topic, at least for another few episodes, right?

Grace: [00:49:41] Yes. I am so excited. You know, I’m a super nerd. So when it comes to this next episode, I’m kind of excited about data mining.

Liel: [00:49:49] Excellent. Well, sounds good. So Grace. Thank you very much. Have a great rest of your week and we’ll be back next week with another episode.

Grace: [00:49:57] Thank you, Liel.

Liel: [00:49:57] All right. Thank you. Bye bye.

Liel:  [00:50:02] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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