Jason Hennessey, from Hennessey Consulting, an INC 500 award-winning legal digital marketing agency, joins Grace and Liel for an off-page SEO conversation.

Jason reveals his reverse engineering methodology and what it takes to implement it. He explains which backlinks get the most value and how you can make decisions about where you should aim to get links for your website. 

From Google Search Console to free PR, Jason shares insights that every law firm should be leveraging amidst the Coronavirus crisis. He explains why we should think twice before making any abrupt decisions about your digital marketing strategy that could end up setting you back years of marketing work and investments.

If figuring out off-site SEO for your law firm has been something you haven’t been able to demystify, then this episode is for you.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

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Transcript

Liel: [00:00:00] Wendy Piersall once said, Google only loves you whenever one else loves you first. But how does Google determine who gets third top spot? I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and this is in-camera podcast where you can find out how to reverse engineer Google’s algorithm.

Liel: [00:00:48] Welcome to In-Camera Podcast Private Legal Marketing Conversation. Grace, it’s always it’s a pleasure to co-host this podcast with you. And thank you for being here today. How are you?

Grace: [00:00:59] Doing all right. I guess with everything that’s going on, how about you?

Liel: [00:01:03] Same Grace. But, you know, focus on the here and now. And because of that same reason, I’m happy about the conversation we’re going to have today. And it’s about strategy. It’s about relevance. It’s about the trustworthiness in authority and not just from a legal digital marketing standpoint, but also as a leader in general, which is so important and relevant in this climate in which we are so Grace, Why don’t you do the honors and introduce to our listeners our next guest?

Grace: [00:01:30] Fantastic. So talking about leadership in general for today’s conversation, we’re delighted to welcome Jason Hennessy, CEO at Hennessy Digital, for a conversation on Off Page SEO. Jason is an internationally known search engine optimization expert, speaker and search marketing correspondent for The Washington Post, Fox Small Business, CNBC and CBS News. For over 14 years, Jason has been a practitioner of search marketing dissecting, testing, debunking and reverse engineering the major search algorithms. In 2019, Hennessy Digital was listed on inc 500 fastest growing private companies in America and most recently named in the top 100 fastest growing companies in California on the inaugural inc 5000 series. Jason, welcome to in-Camera podcast. How are you today

Jason: [00:02:20] Thank you so much. I appreciate that. That sounded so official.

Jason: [00:02:24] So thank you for the kind introduction. I’m happy to be here talking about something that I’m so passionate about. And, you know, on a call with two trusted colleagues in this base. Thank you.

Liel: [00:02:37] Thank you so much, Jason. I mean, we are really, really thrilled about having this conversation. And to be quite frank, not just because of your experience and insight on SEO in general, but because I mean, what you’ve managed to accomplish in just four years in terms of building up this new agency that you’re heading, not that’s your first one. But you’ve had all the agencies before and now you’ve accomplished so much in just four years. And I think in the times in which we are right now, we could all use the words of someone who has accomplished and has done so much in terms of building a team, in terms of building a business to find some advice and reassurance as to what’s going to happen next and what is it that we can be looking at as law firms or marketing professionals.

Jason: [00:03:24] Sure, sure. Yeah. No, I’m you know, I learned through a lot of trial and tribulations I’ve been doing SEO since 2001. So, you know, I definitely know how to weather through storms like this. You know, this is obviously a pretty big one. You know, from an economic standpoint, as well as just a health and wellness standpoint. Right. You know, but besides that, you know, if we’re talking specifically about SEO strategies and things like that. Yeah. You know, I think I’ve got a lot of wisdom to share and it’s mostly from a lot of the mistakes that I’ve made over the years. Right. You got to fail to succeed. And I guess that’s where I’m at in my career. Still failing to succeed.

Liel: [00:04:05] Yes, exactly. And that’s been a very recurring comment. But we’ve been having here. Right, like failure occurred as long as you’re learning from them and moving on and carrying on. So, Jason, let’s start with really touching on the main topic of today, which is off-site SEO. Can you please help us differentiate what’s the difference between on site and off site SEO?

Jason: [00:04:27] Yeah, so onsite and I think you guys had mentioned that you guys have very done a good webinar and that. So maybe that’s a good place to kind of link it in the post here, you know, but you know, onsite SEO is really has to do with how Google is or, or Yahoo! Or whatever search engine is kind of interpreting your site, the integrity of your site. Right. You know, if if the site is loading quick. Right. To the page B, which is a very important variable with SEO, you know, the the way in which pages are linked together, making sure that there’s no dead ends. Google is ending up unbroken 404 pages, you know, onsite SEO. A key to onsite SEO, really, truly, in my opinion, has a lot to do with internal  infrastructure. You can control your own destiny with the way in which you kind of internally link things. And I think we could do a three day boot camp just on internal links and that’s kind of grouped into on page SEO, right? But the topic that we’re going to be talking about today is really in, you know, boosting the actual popularity of the Web site. Right. And so in my opinion, there’s three main components to SEO. There’s the technical component, which really falls into the on page stuff that we just talked about. The second component is content creation and creating a good cadence of content so that you are, you know. Continuously kind of building a larger audience. All right. And then the third piece is building the popularity of that of that content through off page SEO, which is I think, what we’re going to be focused on today.

Liel: [00:05:59] Thank you so much.

Grace: [00:06:01] So I think that perfectly kind of falls into the next question that I have, you know, now that we kind of understand the difference between off and on. Right. What are some of the most common mistakes that you see law firms making when it comes to off page or off site SEO.

Jason: [00:06:18] Sure. Let’s say the first thing is not even knowing what Google search console is.

Jason: [00:06:27] You know, I’d say that’s a big mistake. You know, so that Google search console’s, a free resource that every every Web site, every webmaster has access to and they might not even know it. So you definitely if you’ve never heard of Google search console, you might want to investigate that talk with your digital marketing partner or your webmaster and make sure they get that installed. You should be looking at that, because not only is that going to help with the on page stuff, it reports all the errors and stuff. But that’s also the only way that Google could have a one on one conversation with you as well. But from an off page perspective, that’s where you go in and you need to be monitoring who’s linking back to your Web site. Right. And so if there’s links that are coming into your Web site that don’t seem like good links, like they’re suspicious links that could hurt you. Right. And especially you don’t have a really strong link profile, you know, and you start getting some bad links. Whether it’s just people are linking to it accidentally or if it’s malicious. Right. People are doing negative SEO to you, which we can talk about that, too. You need to have a guard up for that because otherwise your site could start to suffer. If you’re not monitoring that and filing disavows and such. So.

Liel: [00:07:45] So just a quick quick question here, because you’re saying that you may have undesired links linking to your Web site and what can you do about it? Like, let’s suppose that you encounter yourself in that situation and you have a gambling casino or something. Somehow ends up linking to your site. How can you stop that?

Jason: [00:08:03] Or you might have gotten hacked, right? You know, who knows?

Jason: [00:08:05] But, you know, so the way that you do that is, you know, hopefully you have a digital marketing partner at this at this stage of the game. Right. And hopefully the digital marketing partner is kind of looking out on your behalf for this kind of stuff because it is real. You know, it’s you know, that’s that’s that’s the evil way of playing SEO. Right. They call it they used to call PPC porn pills and casinos. Right. And that’s the space where this stuff is really used a lot. But for law firms, you know, again, like if nobody’s watching out for it, you know, you could be vulnerable to negative SEO attacks like that. And I don’t want to scare anybody because it’s not like common. Right. But it could happen. And so the way that you guard from that is, again, setting up Google search console, you know, having access to a different link, research tools. And, you know, and I say this because like lawyers just want to be lawyers. I don’t think they really care about like logging into a trance or majestic or some of these link research tools and monitoring links and being able to decide what’s a good link in a bad thing. You know, I think that’s where, you know, you should have a partner that you trust that does that stuff for you. And they monitor that stuff either on a monthly or quarterly basis where they go through and they start to scrutinize the links that are pointing back to you.

Jason: [00:09:25] So if you’ve got a link coming in from a CNN, you know, and it’s a story about mass torts and you do mass torts. Well, that’s an amazing link. That’s why one of the best things that you can get. Right. But if there’s a an article that talks about, you know, like you said, online gambling. Right. And and there’s a comment in there that links back to your Web site. You know, then maybe that’s one that you don’t want to kind of have coming in because it’s passing negative. You know, both trust as well as as both page rank. Right. And so, you know, that’s something that you might want to add to something called the disavow file. So disavow files, essentially. It’s it’s almost like having a bouncer at a party. Right. And you have all your friends that are coming into the party and they’re on the list. They’re on the list. Right. But there’s, you know, these these people that come in that you don’t know and you don’t trust. Right. And you’re like now we don’t want them coming into the party. Right. And so you’re basically putting together almost like a guest list of who’s allowed to come into the Web site. And so that’s the best way of kind of truly kind of understanding what a disavow is.

Liel: [00:10:33] Perfect. Thank you so much, Jason. And I think you know as we are entering this very, very extensive conversation. You’re mentioning links, right. And you gave us an example of what would be considered a very good. Link and what could also be considered a negative link. Why don’t you try to help us understand a little bit better what different kinds of links exist?

Liel: [00:11:00] Because I’m hearing sure that not all links count and work the same. There are different kinds of links. And so which ones are the good ones? Which ones are the bad ones and how much control do we have over them?Jason: [00:11:14] So, you know, typically well, the strongest link that anybody can get is a link from YouTube. Right. That’s the strongest at any time I reverse engineer link strategies. You know, I look just to see, does the coin have a link from YouTube? Right. And if they don’t have it, then maybe the crawler hasn’t picked it up yet. Or maybe they’re just not being linked to correctly from their YouTube channel. Right. So that’s like I think they call. It’s called domain rating. There’s different tools that use different kind of metrics. But, you know, so YouTube has like a domain rating of like ninety eight out of a hundred. Right. I think the only stronger link that you could probably get is a link directly from like the Google homepage which good luck. I’d pay a lot of money for that link. Right. But you know so so that’s that as you start to go through the list, you know I make reverse engineering link strategies for law firms for over almost 20 years now. Like I know where the strong links are gonna come from. Right. I can see it like, you know, I can see the YouTube. I can see, you know, the Avvo. Right. That’s the link that is not only coming in that has a high domain rating, but it also has a very strong relevancy and trust. Right. Because it’s coming from a from a legal resource. Right. You know, you’re  Findlaw, you’re super lawyers. And some of these links are very expensive. Right. You know, sometimes you gotta to pay fifteen hundred bucks to get a link from like one of these sites.

Jason: [00:12:41] And so sometimes I’ll go through and I’ll look at the link and I might even justify spending 20 grand a year on a link from a site that they might not ever get any business from. Truly like, you know, like advertising on one of these like legal directories for a thousand bucks a month, knowing like telling my client, hey, you’re probably not going to get any business from this. Right. But that’s OK, because the link is so strong that it’ll actually move us up on the search rankings for a lot of other terms. So there’ll be an indirect benefit by kind of being associated on these different sites. So sometimes I’ll see that sometimes, you know, I’ll see links that have a nofollow attribute. Right. So there’s there’s a difference between a followed link and a nofollow link. So, you know, you might get a link from a story on CNN that I mentioned earlier. And, you know, maybe they have that link where it actually is set as a follow attribute. Right. And so what that means is if it’s a follow, then what happens is Google is passing PageRank. Right. So from CNN to your Web site, you’re getting link equity, right? It’s called page rank. And so Google used to show you the page rank. Right. And it went from zero to 10.

Jason: [00:13:56] And it goes exponentially higher from a 4 to 5 and a 5 to 6. I think they use it the time to 8 multiple. So like a page rank of 2 is 8 times 8. A page rank of four is eight times eight times eight times eight. Right. So you can kind of see the exponential value of links as it goes from like eight to nine or nine to 10. And so. So those are follow links. But a no follow link. You know, again, the jury’s still out because Google has come out and publicly said that no follow links are valuable. But in my opinion, some no follow links are very strong and pass a tremendous amount of value. In my opinion, one of the strongest links that you can get is a link from Wikipedia. Right. And that’s a nofollow attribute. Right. But if you get referenced in a story about maybe a case that you were involved with and it links back to your Web site, I mean, even though it’s nofollow and you’re not getting page rank, there’s actually trust signals that are coming over from that link from Wikipedia. Right. So and plus, it makes your website look natural if you have links coming in from nofollow and dofollow a nofollow and dofollow, right? If it’s all followed links, it looks like a little suspicious if if Google is looking at your link profile.

Liel: [00:15:07] Jason, thank you so much. There’s so much information there. And so we just recently had a conversation also about the local SEO when we talked about citations. Now, can you. Can you help us understand this a little bit better because you’re talking here about legal directories and the value that a link coming from them could have. But I’m assuming that’s a different kind of link than the one that you get from having just the listing there or a premium listing. You were talking about a different kind of link, am I correct?

Jason: [00:15:37] It depends. I mean, you know, so sometimes you can get a citation on a site like Avvo, right, where it’s kind of like a free citation. And as they listed your name, address and phone number and so. That’s a metric that Google is using to rank well in local, right? In the maps. Right. So, you know, the more consistent your name, address and phone number is across the World Wide Web. You know, the the the better that you’re going to rank in the map pack for when people are doing searches for your services within the area that you service. Right. You know, once you step it up and you actually advertise with some of those directories, then what they’ll do is they’ll give you an opportunity to increase your profile on their Web site. And so that might mean you get a description and you get some photos and you can talk about some bios and then you get the link back from the Web site. Right. And so sometimes that link alone is very valuable. Right. So the link is what’s going to help you when you are, you know, trying to rank for Phoenix car accident lawyer. Right. You know, because you have a link from a page. Right. One of these directories that’s ranking like position number two for Phoenix car accident lawyer. Right. So let’s just say  Findlaw is ranking number two for Phoenix car accident where they’ve got a list of 100 lawyers on there. You’re not on there. Right. Well, the hundred lawyers that are on there are all some of them are getting linked back to their Web site from that site. Now, Google is deeming this page the second most authoritative document related to Phoenix car accident lawyer. Right. So you want to be associated with that page? Right. By virtue of a citation, your name, address and phone number from a local perspective, but also by way of a link. Right. And so if that page is linking back to you, that is such a strong signal, because this page is essentially vouching for you and associating you to a bunch of terms, that are already ranking.

Liel: [00:17:40] Perfect. Jason, this is excellent. And another thing, before we move on to the next question, because I just want to make sure that I understand this correctly. For a moment there, the conversation felt almost like we were talking about a paid digital marketing strategy and everybody leaves in this bubble where its SEO is still regarded as almost like…

Jason: [00:18:02] Black magic?

Liel: [00:18:02] An unpaid strategy… Not black magic, but an unpaid strategy that you just get very qualified people. But that’s pretty much where the expense starts and ends. You get a good SEO to do the strategy. You get a good web developer to take care of the optimizations. And then that’s really what’s going to drive the strategy. But what you’re telling, what I’m hearing here that a part of that link building is also knowing how to invest in the right kind of links. Is that the right term to use investing like actually putting money down on getting links?

Jason: [00:18:39] Yeah. You know, you know, whether it’s investing or advertising or whatever. I mean, you know how we determine where we should be investing marketing dollars, as you know, and in some cases reverse engineering the competitors. Right. That have more market share than us. Right. And so if we start reverse engineering competitors and we’re on page three of Google for a new client for something like Phoenix car accident lawyer, you know, we start reverse engineering, the top 10 websites that are ranking for that term. And we look at the patterns right and we see, you know, six of the 10 all have a link from FindLaw. Well, you know, we might say, you know, it might make sense to advertise with that site. Right. You know, as much as there’s people that, you know, will cringe when I say stuff like that, you know. But, you know, in most cases, like I will truly, you know, look at the link opportunities and try to assess and value what I think that would be worth. Right. And there’s you know, there’s sometimes where like people will get random, like some of our clients will get random emails from like, hey, this is world’s greatest personal injury lawyer dot com. Right. And they make all of these, you know, saying that they’re getting so much traffic and they’re going to generate hundreds of leads per month. Right. And, you know, sometimes I’m a little suspicious of that. Right. But I can know within 10 seconds of whether I think it’s worth a thousand bucks a month or 500 bucks a month. Right. And in most cases, it’s not, you know, but in some cases it is. Right. And if it is, you know, I have to kind of be honest with their clients about that kind of stuff.

Liel: [00:20:17] So now, Jason, just to try to make this a little bit more actionable for some of the listeners here that are very involved in their SEO and link building strategy. So what are some tools that I can actually… So if I’m sitting on my computer, I just got an e-mail from one of these directories is telling me, hey, you know, we actually get this much traffic and we can actually get you to get an X amount of links, whatever. What is a good way that I can actually validate that Web site and say, you know what, you’re just talking bullshit here or you actually do have some value.

Jason: [00:20:55] Yeah. So SEMrush would probably be the first tool that comes to mind. You know, I would probably say everybody on this on this call should have an account with the SEMrush. I don’t work for SEMrush. You know, I don’t get paid to say that. You know, it’s just a great tool. You know, the reason why I say that is because you can go in and you can take that Web site that somebody is saying that is so valuable. Put it into SEMrush and it’ll tell you specifically, you know, how many keywords that page ranks for. Right. And if those keywords that.. Not just the website, you can put the website in, but you can take a specific page that you will be advertising on and put that your URL for that specific page in there and it’ll show you like this page rank for 17 keywords. Right. And so if those 17 keywords don’t look like it’s very targeted to the audience that you’re trying to attract, then maybe that’s a hard no. Right. However, if you put thatURL there and it says, hey, this page ranked number two for Phoenix car accident lawyer, ranks number one for Phoenix auto accident attorney. It ranks number. And there’s like 60 keywords and it’s all top three on Google for some of the terms that you aspire. They call this barnacle SEO really. Right. So what happens is, you know, you have a page that’s already ranking on Google for a term that you want to be ranking for. Right. And you’re just  associating your Web site with this page that’s already ranking. Right. So the term in the industry is called barnacle SEO.

Liel: [00:22:22] That’s perfect. Thank you so much, Jason. So many tips and insights. They’re very, very useful. So now you know what to do. Next time you get an email offering you to buy a listing somewhere validate it first before jumping into it. Great, great. I hijacked the conversation here a little bit, but I just got a heads up on the links part of it. What else do we have.

Grace: [00:22:45] Now, that’s great. I’m glad that you did. Because, you know, one question always leads to another. Right. And sometimes we need a little more explanation on something. And so we’ve heard about SEMrush from a couple different people. And so now here’s yet another way to look at it, right? SEMrush. You can check the specific URL of page and how many keywords you ranked for. So we appreciate that, Jason.

Jason: [00:23:08] Thank you.

Grace: [00:23:09] So I think that kind of helps us lead to the next question. So what are some good or best practices, I should say, that law firms can consider to generate good quality links or for link building?

Jason: [00:23:22] Hmm. You know, so there’s you know, there’s all kinds of ideas that come to mind.

Jason: [00:23:27] Right. So the first thing would be just kind of foundational links. Right. You know, setting up a YouTube channel, plus publishing, you know, videos on YouTube, you know, and and when you’re publishing videos, you know, if you publish a video that talks about premises liability. Right. You know, maybe link in the description. The first thing that you do in the description is put a link to your premises liability page. Right. And then put the description in there. Right. So that that would be considered a foundational link, in my opinion. You know, setting up, you know, a Facebook account and Twitter account, you know, Instagram account, a Pinterest account. Right. You know, because while some of these links might not pass link. Right. They might not pass. They might be set up as a no follow link. It still validates you as a real business. Right. So set those up. You know, there’s probably two hundred foundational links, you know, that I can think of. You know, Pinterest, there’s other sites kind of like YouTube, like a Vimeo account, you know, setting that up, you know, and if you’re if you’re wise, you know, there’s tools like SEMrush is one of them. There’s another tool called Ahrefs, ahrefs.com.

Jason: [00:24:43] You know, where you can actually, like take some of your competitors and you can reverse engineer some of their link strategies and you can see what links they have that you don’t have and then start to build those. Right. And so with the right tools, like everything is transparent, truly like, I mean that. Like if I wanted to rank number one for president of the United States, I mean, I could reverse engineer and see why the White House or whatever is ranking for that term. Right. You know. Now, is it going to be easy? Probably not. But I can see like very specifically why they’re ranking for terms like that. So that would be it. Other link building opportunities like PR is a great link building opportunity. You know, if you have a PR company or if you have an in-house PR company doing podcasts like this. Right. You know, I’m hoping that when you publish that, I’d get a link back. Right. I’m not doing it for that. But, you know, like it’s just putting yourself out there. The more that you put yourself out there, the more that you’re going to get back. Right.

Liel: [00:25:42] Yeah, absolutely. Your LinkedIn and your website.

Jason: [00:25:44] Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You got that you know. You know, then there’s more advanced strategies that you can use, like, you know, you can set up outreach campaigns, were you starting to pitch bloggers and trying to get bloggers to publish content about you. You know, in the legal space, that’s a little tougher. You know, sometimes, you know, they say paying for link is such a bad term. Right. You know, but, you know, there’s a lot of paying for links. I mean, there truly is, you know, and and and you’re not paying for the link. You’re basically paying for somebody that has a site, that has a topic that you’re interested in, you know, to either publish a piece of content that you wrote or to write a piece of content about you. Right. And so sometimes you have to pay for their time to write the content or you you pay their administrative fee for taking the time to take a content that you wrote and publish it. Right. So you’re not necessarily paying for a link, wink-wink, right. You know, but you are right. And so, you know, there’s all kinds of strategies, techniques. Again, PR is probably one of the best ways to get links back to your Web site, although it’s very expensive.

Liel: [00:27:01] So let’s just for a moment station there on PR. So, by that are we talking about press releases? And…

Jason: [00:27:10] Yeah, I guess we can start there, right. I think, you know, press releases, I think every law firm or every business should do a press release at least once a quarter.

Jason: [00:27:19] You know, just talk about stuff that’s going on in your firm, you know, and publish it on whether it’s a PR Newswire or Vocus or, you know, any of those different sites is going to be between 150$ and 500$ to publish a press release. And what’s going to happen is you’ll get that press release out there and it’ll start getting syndicated across their network. And so as a result, you might end up on 75 news Web sites. Right, because of the syndication. And then typically what happens is those sites then, you know, have it set so that after 90 days, that link just kind of drops and it turns into like a 404 broken pay. Right. So that’s why it’s important to kind of keep continue doing it. You know, at least once a quarter. So, yes, that’s definitely an important part of what you should be doing. Yes.

Liel: [00:28:10] Is that what many of the law firms and not just necessarily law firms but businesses in general that we visit and have, you know, these are beautiful and attractive banners somewhere in our homepage saying as seen in CNN in York Times. And that’s many times the consequence of having done a press release. Correct?

Jason: [00:28:28] Yes. Sometimes if you if you can get picked up on like a like an ABC affiliate Web site. Sure. Yeah. And that adds to credibility into the trust of somebody that’s on your Web site today.

Liel: [00:28:40] Yeah. Because many times you do, you see the banner and you see all of these news outlets or media outlets being mentioned. But there is no actual link to. Why or when they were mentioned in these are all outlets? So in a way or another, you have been mentioned, however, you mentioned it may not necessarily be so current. It’s on and off, depending how frequent your practice sees, sometimes gets picked up, sometimes it doesn’t. But all in press release, you said it’s it’s a good and a strategy that you would vouch for it?

Jason: [00:29:09] Absolutely. Yep. And it’s what real businesses do. Right. If you have press to talk about, you know. You know, I mean, sometimes people will kind of stretch, you know, press. It’s like, hey, we just decorated our conference room and blew it. I mean, press release, you know, obviously that’s not going to get picked up. But, you know, so like, you know, try to find real reasons to do a press release

Liel: [00:29:32] So what other PR strategies are there out there Jason, that could be feasible for most of the law firms out there.

Jason: [00:29:40] Yeah. You know, you want to be set up as a subject matter expert. Right. You know, and so if you have a personal assistant, you know, maybe part of their job is pitching you to become a contributor on different sites. Right. So there’s a site called law dot com. Right. You know that, you know, maybe if you reach out to the person that, you know, monitors the contributors on their Web site, you know, maybe you can start contributing about, you know, whatever it is that you do, whatever type of blog that you do. Right. You know, maybe you can contribute to there’s something called the Forbes council. Right. Where you actually pay, I think like 15 hundred bucks a year. And you can post ten articles on Forbes. Right. And now you’re kind of seen as a trusted adviser. You know, it’s a lot easier, you know, to start getting these type of opportunities as you start to build more and more notoriety in the space. Right. And so you start off, you know, doing smaller things and then you grow into bigger things. And then as you grow into bigger things, right, as you start to publish on sites like, you know, if you’re a contributor on CNN or if you’re a contributor on The Today Show, whatever, you know, you know, some people, some of our clients or even, you know, news reporters on some of these sites.

Jason: [00:31:04] If there’s things that are breaking, they bring the news to their house so they do Skype interviews. Right. You know, so as you start to do that, then you start to get more notoriety. And it becomes even easier and easier and easier. You know, go out and write a book. You know, once you write a book, you get all kinds of link opportunities because you wrote a book. Right. You know, but it’s real. It’s doing real things. Right. And then the SEO benefit comes as a result of that. And as you continue do more of that, then you start getting the blue checkmarks on your Twitter page and your Instagram page. And now now that gives you more street cred. Right. And so now it becomes easier to pitch you to write for these other sites because you’ve already been verified as somebody that has notoriety.

Liel: [00:31:48] Awesome, this is amazing. Now, Jason, I want to just jump back a second ago, because it’s another question that I skip through it. I was so excited to get into the PR conversation. So but I also want to ask you, when you’ve mentioned something here very important which is the value that a YouTube link could have when it links back to your Web site. Now we’re talking about your creating content on your company on your law firm’s YouTube channel, and you’re linking yourself back to your own Web site.

Jason: [00:32:20] In the case that I mentioned, yes.

Liel: [00:32:21] That’s correct. And I do want to emphasize that, because when you hear across many different sites that talk about SEO and such, there is a big differentiation between the links that you post for your self on channels like Facebook. And there is a big difference between those that are on Web sites that are already regarded authority. But you don’t so often hear about links coming from platforms like YouTube, which is also social media channel. But at the same time, one that actually allows you to leverage from those links that get back to you. So I think it’s a very, very important for people not to bundle it up and think, oh, this is YouTube and it’s my channel. So I shouldn’t be putting up links to my site because it may even backfire on me.

Jason: [00:33:12] Sure. Yep. Agree completely. Yeah. So, you know, some of the links that you might get from YouTube and such, you know, might come in just naturally. Right. But anything that you can control, you know, if you have a page and that’s the thing about me, like, you know, like I work with a lot of clients in some of the biggest markets. Right. And so some of the stuff that I share might be seen as like industry secrets. And why is he sharing this stuff? Right. I’m just a transparent person. Right. I mean, because a smart and sophisticated as you can easily go back in reverse engineer the strategies that I’m using. Right. So it’s not a matter of what to do. It’s a matter of actually doing it. There’s a lot of people that just kind of fail at just not doing it, right. I mean, I’ve lectured I have presented, you know, where I’ve given some really industry secrets to people on stage. And people are taking copious notes. And, you know, I’ll go back and ask them how many people actually went back and executed stuff that we talked about. And they don’t you know, and I’m guilty of that, too. You just get overwhelmed. So, yeah. So, like, you know, if you if you’re trying to rank for something like, you know, Seattle motorcycle accident, boy, and your scientist ranking position nine on the first page of Google.

Jason: [00:34:26] Yeah. Create a video. Pop that video on the page. Right. Because there’s something called Pogo sticking in the world of SEO. Pogo sticking is where somebody does a search for Seattle motorcycle accident lawyer. They click on the first result. It doesn’t satisfy their query, right. They don’t have the answer that they’re looking for. So they immediately go back to Google. So Google’s monitoring the time that somebody clicks on that page and the time that they go back to Google. Right. And so if it’s seven seconds and it’s consistently seven, eight seconds. But meanwhile, position number three, people are staying on there for like a minute and 30 seconds because there’s a video. And people are actually clicking on the video and watching the video. Well, that’s actually telling Google algorithmically that that’s a better query. That’s actually satisfying the intent of the person doing that search. So you might see that when the videos start to move up to number one because the others don’t have the video. And then the smart SEO will take that video and publish it on YouTube and a hundred other sites like YouTube with links back to that page. Right. So there’s all kinds of tricks like that.

Liel: [00:35:29] That’s that’s excellent. And so much so valuable. And Grace, I mean, we were talking exactly a week ago about how is it that attorneys that, you know, are, you know, facing challenges now, potentially some considering cutting down on their marketing budgets or so. But these are things that, I mean, create your video content, right? Create your video content so it’s ready to go so you can publish it on YouTube, so you can include it on your Web site and then you can actually implement this strategy by yourself or with the help of an SEO. But at the end of the day, like none of that is going to happen if you don’t have the actual practice area video. Right. And so this is the time, if you rather than worrying rather than watching the TV, rather than, you know, paying attention to every single breaking news segment that comes your way to actually sit down, dedicate time and use time that you now have because you’re not as destructed as you usually are in the office with everything happening in the office. You know, create this kind of content that will definitely help you. Like you’re hearing it not from Grace and I, but from one of the masters of SEO in general, but particularly for law firms. So, Jason, that’s amazing. That’s really, really what this podcast is all about is about actionable things that you can do. Grace, what else do we have there?

Grace: [00:36:42] I just want to make one more note. So as Jason said, guys include the page, but it’s the practice area page. He’s not talking about your home page on that particular video. OK, and that’s important to note. Why? Because you’re not sending everybody to your home page. That’s not helping you or your client. OK. Or the consumer. It’s all about the consumer. It’s all about the user. They want to see what it is that you’re talking about. And that includes on the practice area video and it needs to be the practice area link. Right, Jason?

Jason: [00:37:10] That’s right. You know, sometimes everybody focus is so much on their home page, making it perfect design this move this over here, you know, and I’d say 80 percent of the people that come to Web site never even see your home page. I mean, if you’ve got a very sophisticated content strategy yeah, people aren’t coming to your home page. You know, the only time people do come to your home page is if you’re doing TV or radio or you know, and that’s where you’re sending people. Of course, they’re going to see your home page. But if you’re just kind of focused on a digital marketing strategy, people are coming in from blog posts, from FAQs, from practice area pages right there coming in from so many different entry point, entrance points.

Grace: [00:37:49] Exactly. So in that vein, we’ve seen the search engines are starting to consider more and more factors. Right. Like your search history, location visits, among other elements, to serve customer results to users. Right. So is this something that we can leverage? Is something that we can do about that?

Jason: [00:38:08] Yeah. You know, shifting over to on page for just a second. Yeah. You know, I mean, if if somebody is in, let’s say, south Florida. Right. There’s one thing to have a Fort Lauderdale where you are, Grace. Right. You know, let’s just call it a Fort Lauderdale bicycle accident lawyer. You know, I’m just going to throw that out there. Well, it’s one thing to have one page optimized for Fort Lauderdale. But if somebody is doing a search from Plantation, Florida. Right. You know, Google wants to serve up a page that’s optimized for plantation bicycle accident lawyer. Right. So it begs the question. Well, that kind of seems like a waste. Like, should I really, like, have my content, write it, write a page for Plantation bicycle accident lawyer and Fort Lauderdale bicycle accident lawyer. And the answer is absolutely yes. You know, I have a site that I work on here in L.A. that ranks very well for Los Angeles DUI lawyer. Right. But we also wrote content for every other area in Los Angeles, Santa Monica, Malibu, Santa Clarita. Right. And so what happens is if somebody is doing a search like right now, if I were to do, because I live in Santa Clarita, if I just do a search for a DUI lawyer and I don’t put in a geo modified Santa Clarita, Google actually is indexing my Santa Clarita page because they see where I’m doing the search right? So they see the zip code that I’m doing, the search whether I’m doing from mobile desktop. And so they’re serving up pages optimized for Santa Clarita DUI lawyer. Because Google doesn’t want somebody in Santa Clarita having to go all the way out to Ventura to find their DUI where they want to serve them content that is actually going to be a little bit more useful to that person. So so, yes, you can absolutely take advantage of all of those different variables that you get mentioned.

Grace: [00:39:57] Awesome.

Liel: [00:39:57] Yeah. So basically the question is, sorry the answer is yes. Absolutely. You need to 100 percent be mindful that Google is becoming more A.I. and it’s taking more into consideration what would be more  relevant for the for the user. Jason, that’s what I’m hearing here in your answer. And so with that being said and kind of like a question that we’ve been putting out there to everyone who’s come to the show to talk about a SEO is Jason, how do you anticipate that search page results going to evolve over the next few months or a year or so? Do do you anticipate any particular changes like, we started to notice that, you know, directories are pretty much like kind of like dominating the first page most of the times for practice areas, right. And then we have the ADs and then we have the local pack. Where, I mean, what should law firms be aiming for when it comes down to ranking and making themselves a spot on the first big results?

Jason: [00:41:02] Yeah. So, you know, I think a lot of times like the directories are ranking there, you know. A, because of just the pure authority of their Web site. Right, and so again, that goes back to if they’re already ranking there. If you can’t beat em, join em. So that’s the barnacle SEO, become part of that directory. And if there’s some top spot that’s available, it might make sense to kind of advertise on those because you might get business if they’re actually ranking while there. Right. You know, I think that three pack is going to kind of stay there like the maps. Right. I don’t think that’s ever going to go away. I think that algorithm might continue to change right. They may put more emphasis on reviews. They might take less emphasis from reviews. They might you know, there’s all kinds of different moving pieces on the on the local photos or a very important part of Google local. You know, you want to make sure that you’re uploading photos to your Google business profile. You know, the other thing is, you know, they started to do this in other industries and I hear that they’re going to move it into into legal as well. Like if you go and do a search, like, you know, plumbing repair or h vac repair, things like that, you know, Google also has another service now where they actually kind of are essentially kind of like selling leads. It’s a little different than pay per click, but you basically become like a trusted that there’s a way that you actually become like a trusted partner of Google. And then they’re basically serving up ads at the top above pay per click. You see this again more and the home services industry right now. But that also could be something that’s coming to the legal space. So…

Liel: [00:42:43] Immigration, sorry, it’s already showing up at the beginning.

Jason: [00:42:48] Yeah, that’s right. They are testing it with immigration first. Yep. So.

Liel: [00:42:52] Yeah, not with great success. I must say though. I haven’t I haven’t great heard great comments from people who have gone through the beta. So, Jason, thank you so much for that. I think Grace, We have a question about social media if you want to go for it.

Grace: [00:43:08] Yeah. So, you know, it’s all about the different social signals and things like that that you’ve been mentioning throughout this conversation. Right. So what role would you say a law firm social media activity has on off page SEO?

Jason: [00:43:22] Yeah, well, social media is it’s you’ve already got an audience that knows who you are. Right. So, you know, while the links on Facebook would probably be no follow, it still will send traffic back to your website. Right. So if if you’re doing stuff that’s kind of unique on social media, you know, let’s just say there’s a concert that’s coming to town and you want to give away free tickets to that concert. Right. And you’ve got an audience. You you can use Facebook as a platform. Right. Because you can target people that are in an area. You can target people that have gone to your Web site before. You can you know, you can target people that are in the area that like that. thing. Right. And so it’s it’s it’s almost like a good way of putting up a billboard on a street that, you know, people, you know, are, you know, might be interested in whatever it is that you’re trying to promote. Right. And so how that works is, a you’re driving traffic back to your Web site, which is good. But also people might link to it like the news might pick it up because they seen it and they might do a story on it or you might get a news report or reach out to you to talk about, you know, why are you doing this? You know, and and so you’re able to get natural kind of press as a way of kind of doing social media. Right. So if you’re just doing social media just to get a link back from Facebook, that’s not the right way to do it. But if you’re doing something genuine, whether it’s social, you know, Facebook or Instagram or Facebook, whatever, you know, it’s it’s just it’s a good strategy to incorporate into your whole digital strategy.

Liel: [00:45:00] Good. And so basically, Google is taking into consideration your social media authority, your social media activity. How much interaction there is with your post. That’s also a ranking factor for your SEO Jason?

Jason: [00:45:15] I think an indirect SEO. Right. I mean, I wouldn’t call it a direct SEO factor. Like, I mean, I’ve got sites that ranked number one for major like in major terms that have no social media at all. So, you know, I wouldn’t say that it’s a direct factor, but it’s definitely plays an indirect factor.

Liel: [00:45:34] Yeah. Okay. And the reason is we see a lot of these pies and charts explaining the different components of SEO ranking and local SEO  ranking. And there’s always one piece allocated to social media. So it’s good to really understanding perspective like it can potentially help you, but not necessarily damage you. Cool. I’d like now to kind of take this conversation, kind of do a little sidebar here, because I couldn’t help to notice that yesterday you and Alex Valencia had a video conference with Harlan Schillinger, and you guys were pretty much having a very honest and open conversation about the current climate right now, like what should law firms should do about their marketing activities? And so I really encourage everyone to go and watch it. We’ll put a link on our episode notes to that conversation because I think you can learn a lot from it. I certainly enjoyed it a lot, particularly on a relaxing Sunday morning. But, Jason, what you know, what were your takeaways from that conversation? How…

Jason: [00:46:49] People are a little bit, like people don’t know what to do right now, right? I mean, because people are living a different life than they normally have been living. Both us and our customers, you know, lawyers and their customers. Right. You know, less people on the road driving. You know, more people are watching TV now. Right. So so it’s a different world. Right. But I think, you know, if you, SEO is one of those, you know, spaces that, you know, there’s an old term and I think I mentioned this on the podcast that we did yesterday. The old term is, you know, when is the best time to plant a tree, right? It’s either, you know, 20 years ago or today. Right. And so that’s basically how SEO is. Right. You know, the sites that are, you know, doing very well and the search engines from an SEO perspective, that doesn’t happen overnight. It takes years and years and years of content creation and link building and press and, you know, and building a brand. Right. And so those are the ones that are doing very well, you know. So the stuff that you’re focused on today is not going to have an impact today from an SEO perspective. It’s going to have an impact three months, six months, twelve months. You know, thirty six months from today. Right. You know, as you publish a page of content today that’s targeting a specific audience again tomorrow, that’s not going to generate any leads. Right. In most cases, unless you’re doing paid. But, you know, depending on how authoritative your Web site is, 30 days from now, you might start getting five leads a month from that page that you wrote 30 days ago. Right. But every month, you might get two more leads from that. Right. So, you know, I like to tell people, you know, if you give up on SEO, you basically give up on Internet, you know, because it’s like you don’t believe in the Internet. Right. And so just you have to weather through this storm. You know, you really do. You know, pay per click is more of a controlled environment. You know, like you can shut pay per click off. And there is some negative consequences to doing such. Right. Because you’ve got to re-establish authority and trust again with Google and you know, but you could start to reduce some of that budget if you’re a little bit concerned and people aren’t doing searches, you know. You know, but SEO, again, that’s really like a game. It’s a long term play. And if you’re doing it correctly, it’s it’s growing and compounding and growing and compounding month over month. So I really wouldn’t make adjustments. I would take some of your time during this downturn time if you’re working from home and, you know, maybe have somebody interview you like this and ask you questions and, you know, and then just go through, maybe make videos, have those videos transcribed, you know, and we’ve been talking for almost an hour now and we probably have about eight thousand words of content if we were to transcribe this. Right, you know, and then you have an editor just kind of go through and take out nuggets of it and publish that content on the Web site, as a blog post or FAQs. So, you know, just kind of be strategic about it. Just don’t, you know, don’t don’t stop what you’re doing. Like, that’s that’s a critical mistake unless you truly just don’t have the cash flow.

Liel: [00:49:54] Absolutely. Yeah. But ever since you never weigh. Right. Everybody’s been working so much to build this up. And during a moment of uncertainty, it almost seems like the the the easy or right thing to do. I wouldn’t say easy, but the right thing to do would be kind of like to throw it all out of the window. But that’s probably the biggest mistake that can be. That can be made, right? Yes. Some adjustments. Yes. Set out priorities and obviously be strategic. But exactly by that, by being strategic. You want to make sure that you that you keep these as part of the essential elements that you want, you want for them to be there. Once things have come a little bit. So very, very, very wise words. Jason there, thank you so much. I think we’re ready to wrap it up and as we always do. Grace, what should we go and ask for our three takeaway?

Grace: [00:50:54] Time for the question. Yeah. So to wrap it up here, Jason, thank you again for everything and you know, I think to help us out and everyone on this call right now, given the circumstances that we’re in right now, what are three… We like to do kind of three recommendations that you can give these attorneys to leverage to help them improve their off page SEO right now and maybe even their overall digital marketing strategy during this time that we’re going through.

Jason: [00:51:23] Sure. All right. So there you have it. OK. So the first would be: A) if you’d never heard of search console, get that installed on your Web site. Right. And start to look at it. Again, that’s the way that Google kind of communicates to you. The second would be, you know, how can you start to leverage getting maybe some free PR from this? Right.

Jason: [00:51:52] You know, there’s you know. News reporters are looking for positive news. Right. So, you know, I’m sure if you kind of reach out to a reporter, you have an assistant, reach out to reporters and talk about how you have been able to adapt and what your business has done, you know, to move a law firm from, you know, a brick and mortar to a virtual setting and the tools that you’re using. You know, I think, you know, news reporters would love to report on stories like that, you know, especially right now in this climate. Right. So I would try to take advantage of some of the free PR that you might be able to get and spin it in a way that it’s actually adding real value. And in the third, I’m going to give you four. But the third would be look for inefficiencies in your firm right now, because right now is the time to kind of solve that. Right. So there’s a lot of different inefficiencies if you’ve been on a some kind of a software that you’ve not been happy with. You know, maybe, might now be the time to kind of rip it off and peel the Band-Aid off and start over, you know. Meanwhile, it’s kind of slow or, you know, just. Just any inefficiencies, you know, whether it’s intake, you know, whatever. Figure out how you can kind of start to solve that. And then the fourth take away would be take the time to really, you know, bond with your family and stuff during this time, you know, like because oftentimes we’re go, go, go work work work at the office till like 8:00 o’clock, 9:00 at night. You know, when now you’re stuck at home. So work-life balance, right. I mean, go to work for, you know, eight hours, but then stop work and go spend time with your family. You know, go, you know, take the dog on a quick walk, you know, do whatever you have to do. But, you know, leverage the time to kind of also start to bond and build better relationships with your family.

Liel: [00:53:40] All excellent takeaways, Jason. Grace it’s going to be very hard to compete against these takeaways. I think they’re all wonderful. Jason, thank you so much for such a wonderful conversation. So many insights. It’s been a real pleasure. And we wish you and your team and your families all the best during these times. Thank you for joining us. Stay safe. And we’re looking forward to having another conversation with you, hopefully in better times spotting the near future.

Jason: [00:54:07] Thank you so much for having me on the show. I appreciate it, guys.

Grace: [00:54:10] Be safe.

Grace: [00:54:11] Thank you, you too.

Liel: [00:54:11] Thank you very much.

Liel: [00:54:18] Grace, another great conversation and the third about our SEO trilogy. Right. We’ve done On-Site SEO would on off-page SEO, we’ve done local SEO. And I think there’s a lot to take from this conversation and especially Grace, what I really liked about this conversation is that particularly in these circumstances in which we are this is a conversation that is highlighting so many different opportunities, so many things that we could actually leverage and work on during this time that I think we can go through some of those ideas and make our own list of takeaways here, which in reality I think it’s going to match quite a bit with what Jason suggested as his takeaways because they’re actually all very good.

Grace: [00:55:08] Yeah. We’re just combining, I think, a couple into kind of one and then one that really I wanted us to go over. And I know that you and I were just talking about it, about YouTube. So let’s get into our takeaways.

Liel: [00:55:20] Yeah, well, let’s start with a YouTube one.

Grace: [00:55:22] OK. So I think one of the to me, one of the most important takeaways and that’s kind of why I stopped him when we were talking about it was about YouTube videos. Right now with everything going on. You guys just pick up your camera, pick up your cell phone and create practice area YouTube videos. Look at the frequently asked questions. Think about questions you need to ask. That constantly being asked by your consumer, by the user, by your client, and make a video and include a link to the practice area page in description.Right?

[00:55:55] Yeah, exactly. I mean, we’ve just heard that it’s one of the most valuable things that you can have, link that come from YouTube. And so if you haven’t recorded in the past practice area videos because you haven’t had the time or whatever the reason may have been. Well, if you do encounter yourself now with a little bit of time in your hands. Less destruction’s, it’s a great time to do so. Right. And Grace, I think I love the emphasis that you put on. Just pick up your phone. Just keep it simple. You don’t need to have a massive production to go after this project. You can do it with the resources that you have. And it’s as valuable as if you were to hire a professional to do it for you. So, Grace, that’s a really good one. Second one, and I think it’s very evident here. Right. It’s just add search console through your Web site. Right. I mean, we hear time and time and again how valuable of a resource it is. I mean, Jason gave us a handful of good reasons why you want to have this information. It’ll just help you better understand how your Web site is performing and what are the opportunities that you can tackle, particularly when it comes down to understanding who’s linking back at you. Is it good or is it not? What do you think? Grace?

Grace: [00:57:11] That’s right. And I mean, to just get into it, guys, this is not Google Analytics, it’s search console. It’s how people search and how they get to your page in search on Google. OK. If you don’t know how to get to it, just type Google search console in Google and it will show you where it is. You’ll be able to link it using your current Google analytics. It’s not that difficult. I promise you. If you have any questions, you can always submit questions to us and we’ll be more than happy to give you exactly step by step instructions or instruct you where to go to do this. But search console is of the utmost importance to understand how people look through your pages, where they go. All of that. And that is the. It’s free.

Liel: [00:57:50] Yeah.

Grace: [00:57:51] So you need to do it now.

Liel: [00:57:53] Grace, there’s the third one, right, that we’ve selected. And I think this one is very, very valuable here. That Jason also brought up as one of his takeaways is find ways to get and generate free PR. He gave us a few ideas, Grace. I don’t know if you can go through some of them. I think the value of these speaks tones.

Grace: [00:58:15] So, yeah, I actually wrote down a couple of his ideas. Right, regarding PR that those things are basically simple press releases about something interesting that may have happened recently and particularly with what’s going on right now, right, Liel? I mean, we have such not such good news going and being bombarded and constantly telling us on through different CNN, CBS. So if you go on to PR Newswire or Vocus and you post out something, how have you been handling the remote? Have you moved everybody to remote work? You know, something interesting, something worthwhile, something positive to tell others about how you’re handling the current situation and how your firm is handling it. Right. People do want to know this stuff. And, you know, the the idea is that you should get picked up by these different news outlets because they’re all looking for positive news. So if you don’t have time to do it, have your paralegal reach out, have an assistant reach out. You know, you can be a contributor on law.com. You can even write a book. This is all PR related. OK. It’s all about press releases and public information that you’re putting out there for others to pick up and read.

Liel: [00:59:26] And I mean, as Jason said, you know, reach out to local news outlets, to local newspapers and pitch yourself as an authority on certain subject matters so they can use your content and reach out to you whenever they need information about a particular thing, but on a different standpoint, Grace. You know, I think and we’ve seen this a lot. Right. A lot a lot of people are reaching out for, they’re actually searching and they want to find out information that’s going to help them right now. And, you know, there’s so many other attorneys right now who are probably going through the same thing that you are in, while other attorneys are not necessarily your desired client. I mean, unless you are on the B2B law firm marketing side of things, you should still go ahead and document how are you transitioning your operations? What actions are you taking? How are you as a business leader and as a law firm leader managing through these times in in and create content? Right. I mean, whether you want to do a Facebook live video, whether you want to do an actual article and share this out, I think there’s so much value in it. Grace, there’s so many people right now reaching out to social media, or just in general Googling stuff to find answers to the questions that they have. And while your answer may be good for you, others may want to know about it. And there’s no right or wrong is just about putting out your voice out there being part of the conversation. What do you think grace without countess in a way or another PR?

Grace: [01:01:14] It does. Of course it does. And I mean, that’s even right now as we’re talking, I saw an email come in from Harbor Freight talking about the community. Right. And the reason I’m mentioning this right now is because they’re giving away their entire supply of N95 masks face shields and five and seven milliliter nitrile gloves during cold right now to 24 hour emergency room hospitals giving it away. So everything going on right now. It’s super important to understand and reach out and take time to give good news. Give information, people. We’re all looking for that connection right now. And that includes your firm and what’s happening with the people in your firm. And those are press releases, right. Those are things that we want everybody to to understand and know and and post and connect. Right. I mean, I think that’s the whole point of what’s going on right now. And that’s all of our podcasts will be colored with that information and that kind of ideas going forward, no?

Liel: [01:02:20] Yeah. Well, as long as this is part of our reality and part of our daily lives, this has to be talked about and has to be integrated as part of every single conversation we have. Otherwise, nothing that we would say would be applicable if we don’t add to the equation the current circumstances in which we are because everything around us is being guided and measured by it. And so we need to ensure that our conversations are relevant to the times that we leave.

Liel: [01:02:49] Grace, thank you so much again for the time for the amazing contributions that you always give to our conversations. And I’m looking forward to our next conversation. So please, if you have any questions. If you have any comments, please reach out to us at ask@incamerapodcast.com and we’ll be more than happy to hear what you have to say and add it to our list of topics. Or maybe have you come and join us for a conversation.

Grace: [01:03:17] Thank you, guys.

Liel: [01:03:18] Thank you. Bye.

Liel: [01:03:25] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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