ICP Logo

S1 E1: Take Me to the SERP Top


ICP Logo

S1 E1: Take Me to the SERP Top





In the first episode of the In Camera Podcast, Grace and Liel introduce themselves and explain why they started this podcast and what you should expect to get from listening to it. 

They share valuable tips on various topics across legal digital marketing (including local SEO, PPC and websites), and they walk you through the best practices on citation building and Google My Business listing optimization for optimal rankings. Moreover, they explore attorney reputation management, and they share their insights with regards to review generation and monitoring. 

After listening to this episode, you will know the best digital marketing channels for your law firm to advertise on and how to do it correctly and efficiently in order to get the most out of your advertising investment. 

Resources mentioned in this episode:


Moz Local

Google My Business

Google Skillshop

Want to share your story, ask a question, or share your comments about the podcast with us?

You can connect with us by visiting our website: incamerapodcast.com

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

Enjoy the show? Please don’t forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!


Liel: [00:00:00] On today’s episode, we introduce ourselves to podcast and give you the three takeaways you have to implement to set your law firms digital marketing strategy for success in 2020. Welcome to in camera where we uncover private legal marketing conversations.

Liel: [00:00:48] Hello and welcome to in camera This is your podcast for Private Legal Marketing Conversations. I’m here joined by Grace Montealegre. Grace, how are you today?

Grace: [00:00:59] Hi, Liel. Thank you for enjoying me. And thank you for having me on today.

Liel: [00:01:04] Excellent. It’s my pleasure being here. And so I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media. And I’m extremely excited of coming to this point, Grace. We’ve been talking about this podcast for quite some time. So why don’t we explain or tell the listeners, who are we and what are we trying to achieve with this podcast?

Grace: [00:01:25] Thank you so much, Liel. So I’ll say a little bit about myself. Again, my name is Grace Montealegre. I’m the V.P. of marketing and operations for PERSIST Communications, as well as Jack Corvino and Lake, which is a law firm based out of Savol, New York. And so I have a little bit of a unique background, about 20 years of legal, marketing, and marketing in general in multiple industries. So that’s sort of why I came together with Liel and we decided we needed to have some kind of conversations that we have off the cuff on the norm. And I feel like other people need to have the same kind of conversations or at least to be a party to our conversations. What do you think, Liel?

Liel: [00:02:07] I loved that Grace, and you know that I’ve always been a big advocate of having these open conversations. No bullshit conversations, right, about legal marketing like we’ve both been over the past six, eight months to get her out of all kinds of shows, trade shows, conferences about legal, marketing, and it’s very easy to tell right between who’s there just to to serve the Kool-Aid and kind of try to convince you on things and speeches that we all know, not necessarily deliver brick results. And so we wanted to question all of those things and have more honest conversations about really what our why is it that we were marketing law firms then? What are the strategies that really have any impact and enable growth?

Liel: [00:02:54] But before that, I’d like to take just one woman to briefly introduce myself. In case you’re wondering about the name and the accent. Well, I was born and raised in Mexico City. My parents are Israeli. And throughout my life, I have lived in seven different countries across four continents. Since I was a child, Legal marketing has been very present in my life. And as a marketeer, I was involved in building one of the best-known legal brands amongst U.S. Hispanics. Most recently, I became the co-founder of Nanato Media, a multicultural digital marketing agency based out of Austin, Texas. And we create and implement bicultural marketing strategists for law firms that want to dominate their local Hispanic market.

Liel: [00:03:33] And with that being said, Grace, I think it’s time for us to talk about in camera and what is it that we are trying to achieve with this first episode and the first nine episodes. Right, that we outlined here. So are you ready for that?

Grace: [00:03:47] I’m ready. Let’s get going. I’m super excited.

Liel: [00:03:52] Excellent. So our first episode, our first episode is going to be about. You guessed right. Digital marketing. Right. We’ve created a series of nine episodes and we’re going to break them down in blocks of three episodes. Now, the first block, it’s going to be about marketing and lead generation. Right. A building that the people of the iceberg that leads to keeping a lot from growing and being. So in our first episode, we’re gonna be talking about digital marketing. And so let’s get started with that.

Grace: [00:04:33] All right. And just to let everybody know, we are going to break down digital marketing into some basics. So a lot of you may have a lot of information and know a lot of things about digital marketing, but there’s never been, I feel. And this is part of the reason we have this podcast right, Liel, is to give you that private conversation. But it’s really not that private. It can be found out there. There are basics and there are these things that we’re gonna help you with, right? Things like citations, you know, Google My Business. We’re gonna discuss some information about Websites, why you do them, and then we’re gonna end it with a little bit about paid digital marketing. And I think our conversation is gonna be a lot more illuminating for you than you may realize, particularly once we get to why do you build a Website? So, Liel, let’s start with our citations. We’ll discuss in citations YEXT, AVVO, Google My Business, and things of that nature. Where would you like to start?

Liel: [00:05:31] So going back to where we started this conversation. Right.

Liel: [00:05:35] So we’ve been going to all of these conferences and we’ve sat down and listened to a lot of digital marketing experts about all kinds of ways and strategies to really capture an audience and grow. And so there is a lot of people advocating heavily on SEO. There’s a lot of people advocating heavily on social media, on a social media strategy. There is a lot of people heavily advocating on their search marketing strategy.

Liel: [00:06:07] Right. Paid search marketing strategy to be more specific. And we decided to really bring it like for the sake of giving people real value and giving them a takeaway that they can just, you know, at the end of this episode, go to and work on it without having to necessarily hire anyone or pay nobody to apply it for their law firm.

Liel: [00:06:32] And so we’ve decided to do to focus on probably one of the most powerful force out there. And that’s citations. Right. So Grace, Why don’t we explain our audience what citations are? I think you’ve covered it all a little bit on in the intro, but let’s be very specific. What are citations and why do we need them?

Grace: [00:06:53] So every single listing for every location business out there has citations. Citations are exactly how your company is listed on the Web. Essentially. May have heard of YETX. YETX It is a service that will basically make your citations exactly the same across the Web. Why is that important? Because if your address as an example says W as opposed to West in one place and then another, it says W West Road R D. And different things of that nature, then it’s considered a different address according to the different citations that are possibly out there. So Yelp is another one, AVO is another Google By Business is one of the most important and we’ll delve into that one specifically. But these are what citations are. Just so you know that’s the definition of a citation and that is how you should think about them. You need to have the same exact address and information that is out there across the entire width, wherever you’re sighted.

Liel: [00:08:02] So absolutely, that’s what citations are. And so as as as a member of YEXT’s Partner Agency, here’s basically what the reason why you want to have your business listed exactly identically the same way across different directories.

Liel: [00:08:24] Right. And so basically. Google likes to show listings that they believe are relevant for the search intent of the users and that Google feels comfortable and confident showing us reliable businesses. Right. And so as we know, Google is all about algorithms. Google looks at the data and makes decisions based on how their algorithm interprets that state. That data in the way Google for local search read citations is in a way that the more consistent information they find about a particular business across different directories, the more confident Google is going to feel about listing that business on potentially the local pack search results. And as you and I know very well, showing up now on the local pack organically is potentially more powerful than showing on the first page of organic search results on position number eight or six, right. Because people are pretty much having access to that information on the top of the screen. And so citations are a big and important step towards opening the way for your law firm to get to show on that local pack. Right. So would you like for going back to what you were saying about YEXT. So when you go and look at what we charted directory is that YEXT is going to lose your business in. Right. It’s going to be seventy-five big primary directories that you can see that well, that Google considers important for local search. And so you’ll find a lot of stuff that you’re going to question yourself and say, do I really need to be listed in MapQuest? Do I really need to be listed in yippy dot com? Probably, you’re not currently generating clients from there and you’re probably won’t. However, Google those care about you having a listing in those businesses and those pages and those directories. And so for that reason alone is that it’s worth working on these citations that you can do this manually or you can do this through a paid platform such as YEXT most or whichever order platform you decide to use for this purpose.

Liel: [00:10:42] What do you think?

Grace: [00:10:43] I agree. And citations are so super important and that really I feel like you gave a very good explanation and definition of citations, and I feel like that will lead us directly into Google My Business. Why? Because yes, you can do it yourself, or you can pay a service like YEXT’s, which would probably be the easiest for you to do once you have that done. This is something you can do on your own.

Grace: [00:11:07] It doesn’t have to be through a paid agency, but if you have an agency that you’re working with, make sure that that’s part of the required requirement or request that your citations are definitely the same across. And then you move into Google My Business. Why is that? Well, because that is probably one of the most important citations there are out there. Right.

Liel: [00:11:28] I would say Grace. I would say with all confidence, Google, my business is the most important citation.

Grace: [00:11:35] Good.

Liel: [00:11:36] I would even, I would even challenge the notion that maybe your Google My Business least think is more important than your Website. And so that’s a challenge out there. I’d love to hear from a listener who disagrees on this and their argument, but for the average Joe law firm their google, my business is probably going to be more effective than their Website in building awareness and driving business. I’m so sorry that I interrupt you there, but I feel so strongly about this that I felt it was worth mentioning.

Grace: [00:12:13] No, definitely. You’re 100 percent right. And you know how many times I’ve told people, you know, being being in marketing for so long. That’s one thing. I’ve always gone back to a physical location, particularly as a law firm. Once it’s on Google My Business and it’s been confirmed with the card that you’re supposed to get. We’ll talk a little more about that once we talk specifically about Google, my business and things you should do on there. Once you get that card and it’s approved by Google that this is a real location. You have so many opportunities for marketing in the local area that you won’t have until you have a Google My Business listing that is confirmed. So it’s super important. It’s important on every level. And I think we’re gonna talk probably more about Google My Business than anything else, even about than the Websites and paid digital marketing, like you said, because Google My Business. You can even have a Website on Google My Business that will be free. So if you created a Website through Google My Business, guess what? Now it’s connected to Google My Business. And it’s definitely more important than your Website anyway.

Liel: [00:13:19] You’re absolutely right. So how do you open up all my business account? Well, very simply, you go and register your business. You, first of all, you have to have a Gmail account. So hopefully your law firm e-mail host is G-mail. But even if it’s not, you can just open up a Gmail account for your business and then go ahead and list your business with Google. And as you very rightly said, Google will then want to verify that you’re actually in that location by sending a snail mail confirmation letter, which will then go back to the platform and confirm the true pin code.

Liel: [00:13:58] Now, that’s easy. There’s tons of tutorials so YouTube as to how to open up Google My Business accounts. So we’re not going to really spend more time talking about that. Just go and check it out. And so once your Google My Business account is open, what are important steps that you should take to ensure that you have a decent Google My Business listing?

Grace: [00:14:20] As as he said, it’s super easy to set one up once he’s confirmed and everything. And Google My Business will actually take you through a step by step tutorial. Once you’ve set up the Google My Business account and it will show you what you should be doing out of a list, a couple of those. First and foremost, you should be taking pictures of the inside of your firm on the outside of your firm. You should be posting those pictures through Google My Business. Secondly, you should be writing posts and or blog posts and posting those through Google My Business as well. As I’d say, there’s a couple of other things you can do in terms of adding events. If you have any community events you can and literally use it as if it was a Website and or a social media platform, because that is exactly what it is. It is a combination of multiple types of media in one. And since it’s served up by Google, Google is going to be looking at you as the most relevant. Liel, do you have any specific things?

Liel: [00:15:23] I think you’ve covered them all, Grace. But it’s all about really just meeting the basics, right? Have your accurate disco’s box to just general citation building, but list your opening hours, make sure that you’re updating the days that you are going to be close.

Liel: [00:15:40] Right. Google cares about these things, right. The more information and updates that Google sees that you’re making on your Google My Business, as you say, to either by posting questions and answers or articles for posts. The more Google feels confident about knowing that, “hey, these guys are there, they’re active.” So we should probably pay more attention to them than to this other guy that open up their Google My Business page by up, but hasn’t made any changes on it for the past four years. Right. And so the more activity Google sees that you’re having on your Google My Business page, the more confident it’s going to be about feel about your business. Now, I think at this point, we are good to jump to one of the most, most, most, most important reasons why businesses open up.

Liel: [00:16:30] Google My Business pages and that’s reviews, right? Probably Google My Business reviews. It’s the biggest driver to new clients for online users and so Grace, why don’t you talk to us a little bit about why our businesses shoot or law firms should be putting lots of effort into generating reviews, particularly Google my business reviews.

Grace: [00:17:03] So in review generation in general, I’d say that is the most important factor in any business. Doesn’t matter what business you’re in. And I’m going to speak a little bit about consumer behavior and the psychology of consumer behavior, as well as the algorithm in Google.

Grace: [00:17:22] Anything below a four-star in Google once you type in. Give me the best law firm. Anything under four-star will not appear at all.

Grace: [00:17:34] So if you have reviews and let’s say you have eight reviews and you have a three-point nine, you’re not going to show up. You’re not going to show up in the three pack if you have fewer reviews and bad reviews than other firms that are exactly in the same local area as well. So review generation and reviews on Google and Google My Business are not just important. They are the lifeblood of your business. And without a review, think about your own self when you go and buy something, when you go and search for someone. The first thing you do is go to Google. See how many reviews they have. And if someone else is speaking ill about that company and or firm and or etc., then you’re not going to go. And if you see something that says 3.9 as opposed to someone else that has a 4.5. Whether they have the exact same amount of reviews or not, you’re going to them.

Liel: [00:18:29] Ok. Grace, so just to make sure that I am understanding correctly. Right. So we first talked about citations and how important they are to build to make your business reliable to Google and other search engines. Correct. But now reviews is another critical factor. That Google is going to be looking at to deciding on whether your business should be lost. Listed on that’s true park for a local search. And so basically what you’re saying is we want reviews, but we want to have good reviews. So with that being said, Grace. What does that mean that we should be doing about bad reviews? Should we avoid bad reviews or should we just tackle them in a smart and ethical way?

Grace: [00:19:26] Fantastic question. When you have a bad experience, you’re more inclined to tell ten different people, as opposed to when you have a good experience. Right. So when you have a good experience, you might leave a you you might not. So in that same mindset, when you get a bad review, you should always respond. You should respond even quicker than you respond to a good review. Why? Well, because how you respond to those reviews also shows what kind of a company you are. Are you trying to duck the fact that I’m complaining about something that everyone might complain about? As an example, are you ducking a specific issue? Is there something wrong with your company that you’re not responding to reviews? And not only that but if you don’t respond to reviews and you respond or if you respond too late to a review. Meaning not within 24 to 48 hours, really, it should be sooner. But if 24 to 48 hours, there’s a response time. So Google will continue to push you down for not responding to reviews, for reviews that are bad and for not responding to even the bad reviews. Not to mention the consumers themselves. Because if I see a bad review, I will actually read what the company responded to that review. And I may still go because I agree. 

Liel: [00:20:48] Grace, in answering my question, I’m hearing a lot of things here. So no one is. So we want to as business owners, we want to generate reviews. Right. But when those reviews are coming through. So one thing I’m hearing is we need to respond. Correct?

Grace: [00:21:05] Always,

Liel: [00:21:06] Always. Good ones, some bad ones,

Grace: [00:21:08] No matter what.

Liel: [00:21:10] Excellent. Now, the other part that I’m hearing you say here is that. If you get a bad review. It’s not about trying to suppress that, but review, but it’s about answering in a professional and smart way.

Liel: [00:21:28] Ultimately, the way I will see it is… You’ve just given a great opportunity, you’ve been given insights to something that is not working well in your law firm or your business. And here is someone who’s telling you about it and giving you an opportunity to make things right for them. Right. And so. What are you saying is that we should take that opportunity and try to turn around the experience for this particular user and would in return… Can we expect to potentially see our review? I’ve changed in that review with users at times. Consider adjusting their original review.

Grace: [00:22:19] So I got to say thanks, Liane, for organizing my thoughts. That’s exactly right. And that’s the way to look at it. It’s an opportunity to not only possibly fix what is wrong if there’s something wrong, but also turn that person from someone who’s unhappy to a lifelong customer.

Liel: [00:22:39] I think as Business owners, as marketing experts, we’ve encountered over and over and over again people who are panicking about getting bad reviews. And quite honestly, there’s nothing to be concerned about it. Actually, it’s a great opportunity for you as a business to let know your potential new clients and current clients. How do you deal with adversity? How do you actually respond to your clients when things don’t go the right direction? And so as new people are researching your business and they’re trying to consider whether they’re like to work with you or not. But reviews give them a good opportunity to do to really understand, OK, what happens when things don’t go right and many users are actually looking for that particular information. I want to know how things will look like in the worst-case scenario so I can decide whether I’m comfortable with that or not.

Grace: [00:23:45] So I want to mention one last thing about Google My Business and review generation. So there’s actually a section within Google, my business that gives you a short link. Meaning a smaller link to be able to send to your people, meaning your clients.

Grace: [00:24:02] And I would highly suggest that after a good intake, a good handing over a check or disbursement, that you make the ask for that review and you provide them with this link. You send it to them by text, you send it to them by email. You send the team, however you have to send it to them, but you make sure to make that ask to get those reviews. And there is a very simple and easy short link in Google My Business that makes it as easy as possible for you to make that ask.

Grace: [00:24:32] My last comment on that. 

Liel: [00:24:34] Grace actually is such an important point, right, and I’m so glad that you brought it up, because we hear and we hear and talk so, so frequently about review generation.

Liel: [00:24:47] But we many times don’t answer to to to the most important question when it comes down to review generation and it’s when to make the ask. Right. And so this may differ between law firm to law firm. As you’ve said, in some cases, it may be appropriate to do it after a good intake. In some cases, you’ll want to wait until an actual settlement and check handing been reached. Right. But I think the key here is as law firm, a manager or as the as the marketing manager of a law firm, you need to define when those asks will happen as part of your a sequence of steps or guidelines that you have.

Liel: [00:25:33] So to make sure that it’s one of those boxes that need to get tweaked as part of the process of handling a potential new client. So very, very, very well pointed out. Grace, thank you for that. So, Grace, are we good now to move to another point. Can we talk now about another big component of digital marketing?

Grace: [00:25:57] Yes. So let’s move on to the Websites and in Websites. We’re not going to discuss specifically how to build a Website or anything of that nature. What we’re going to talk about is how important is a Website? Why do you build a Website and who are we building this Website for? So those are the main topics of this section that we’re going to discuss Websites. Is that right, Liel?

Liel: [00:26:23] Yes, it is, Grace. And so every time I’m I’m I’m auditing a new opportunity, a new prospect for our agency. You know, it’s so interesting to analyze their Website traffic. Right.

Liel: [00:26:42] Because you just come to realize how many times Websites have been built without an actual purpose. And you can tell that because the Website is either not driving any kind of traffic or not creating any impact on the traffic that is actually getting in. Right. And so I believe that the way that we’ve gone about thinking about Websites is kind of like, “OK, if I have a business, if I have a law firm, I have to have a Website, whether it’s going to be driving new clients to me or not.” But it’s just part of the expectation that users have is to, for any business that exists for a Website to be available.

Liel: [00:27:39] And I think that mentality has fueled the Internet with useless Websites that as we’ve very, very well know, are not making it to the to the first or second or third page of organic search results. So if that is happening, then why should you still continue to pay for hosting for a Website if you’re not driving or if it’s not driving traffic for your law firm?

Grace: [00:28:11] Super important points, right? I mean, people build Websites for so many different reasons. And the most important one is why. Why did you do that? You built you built it just to have an online business card. I mean, to have an online presence of some sort. But with no thought and or strategy behind it, that’s that’s basically throwing money away. Right. And then you have the opposite end of the spectrum where they build a ten-fifteen thousand dollar Website that has all the bells and whistles, but it’s built for them. Right. Meaning it’s built to make them feel good. Look good. And what I call hero videos are splayed all across the pages that don’t really serve up any type of relevant content. And guess what? Google knows that. Google looks at these things. Google sees that your Website has traffic that might be going to it. But do they jump off after a few seconds? Because all they see is content that doesn’t answer the question that they’re asking, but it got them there. I mean, there’s a few different things. I know I’m going down a different path than what we were specifically talking about in Websites and how important they are. But, you know, you need to start somewhere and you need to start at it a bit at the place where you look inside and you say, why am I building this Website? Who is it for? Am I building, just for myself or Am I building it to actually get something out of it. What is my goal, right, Liel?

Liel: [00:29:35] You’re absolutely right. Grace, when you you know, when you when you introduce a conversation off the Website. So this whole conversation is is a Pandora’s box.

Liel: [00:29:46] We cannot cover up all of the complexities of building and optimizing a Website for a law firm or any kind of business in one conversation on a podcast. But I think that the point that we’re trying to make here for our listeners is that if you have a Website or are planning on creating a Website in 2020. Understand and define very well from the very beginning. What’s the purpose of that Website and measure against it?

Liel: [00:30:24] So if you just want to have a Website for the sake of having an online business card and you’re expecting zero traffic from that Website and you’re okay with putting that money, investing that money for basically generating no results, then that’s fine. You’re actually meeting the goal that you’re setting for yourself. However, if you’re investing on a Website with the intention of actually driving business through your law firm through it. So then how are you measuring that?

Liel: [00:30:57] And how are you actually able to translate all of those increase in ranking positions and clicks and bounce rate percentages into actual dollars for your law firm? Because as long as you cannot make that connection seamless, as long as you cannot translate what has been the actual value of your website, organic traffic into dollars for your law firm, you don’t know you don’t know whether this Website is serving a purpose. And so that’s our message for everyone listening. Now, at the beginning of twenty-twenty and having great ideas and great projects for the Website is fine. Go for it. Just make sure that whatever you do on your Website, it actually brings results to the bottom line, because if it’s not. What, Grace?

Grace: [00:32:01] Crash and burn. So, you know, back to the no bullshit. Right. I mean, the biggest thing for me that I want people to take away from this particular section of our conversation is that define your goal before you do anything.

Grace: [00:32:17] Always. Right. That’s everything in marketing. And for every dollar you spend, there needs to be a measurable return on investment. That is the job of every business owner, of every marketing person. And theoretically, every single person that works in your business. So when it comes to a Website, make sure you have it defined what your goal is. What results are you expecting out of it? And how are you going to achieve those expectations by building out the website? The way it’s going to generate those results. So that’s my last comment on Websites.

Liel: [00:32:53] All right. So, yeah, really, really putting Websites on the spot at the beginning of 2020. And so far, users not to get out for listeners not to get the wrong message.

Liel: [00:33:07] We are advocates of having digital presence. We’re advocates about having Website and. 

Grace: [00:33:13] That’s we make our money, right, Liel?

Liel: [00:33:15] Correct. Correct. Absolutely. However, we were all about building Websites with a purpose. We’re all about strategizing. Web web development based on achieving goals. And so we should never lose sight out of it. And we should always be able to hold ourselves accountable for any marketing investment that we’re doing in any digital platform. To the results they are actually generating. So I think we’ve already overstated that for the past five minutes. So why don’t we move on to our next and final point for these soft first digital marketing conversations for 2020.

Grace: [00:34:05] So the last section we’ve got for you guys is on paid digital marketing. So, again, we’re not going to necessarily discuss how to run a digital marketing campaign because, again, that’s what we do. Right.

Grace: [00:34:17] What we’re going to discuss here is what platform is more likely to generate results for your firm and with a limited amount of money to get leads. Where should you put it? And we will also discuss at the very end of everything the key takeaways for each of these sections, but also specifically on paid digital. Because we know you’re spending a lot of money on something you want to know ABC. So that’s what we’re going to discuss.

Liel: [00:34:46] That’s absolutely right. Grace, so pay digital marketing again. We couldn’t have chosen more complex conversations to have in one single episode. However, you know, I think you cannot talk about digital marketing without touching on these three major points that we’re trying to cover here. One of them being your citations, your business presence online across different platforms, which also includes those very important social platforms such as Facebook, YouTube and so forth. Your Website, which is basically your, your business store online. And then you’re paid digital efforts, which are the ones who if, you have not yet figured out how to drive traffic organically, are going to enable you to get in front of people who need your services to date. Right.

Liel: [00:35:57] And even if you have already figured out how to drive business to your site organically and convert those into clients, it will help you protect it and grow it even further. Right. So is it fair to say, Grace, that paid digital marketing is not a one-way or another thing here? So if you chose to go to your the. Oh, I want to on driving traffic organically so I’m not going to do that paid part of it. Is that is that an option?

Liel: [00:36:31] Or are both strategies helping each other and when I should not just say both strategies because citation is also part of it. Right. So your citation is tied to your website performance. And of course, you know, your overall digital activity will tie to also what you’re doing on paid digital marketing. So is it fair to say that all of these three elements support each other? Yes.

Grace: [00:37:00] So to exactly what you’re saying, it’s omnichannel, right? Meaning multiple locations for this particular media sources or excuse me, not media sources paid digital. You should always have marketing. You should always have organic advertising, meaning you’re always building up your own organic because it’s not sustainable to have paid only. That’s just a given, right? Am I wrong leel in making that statement? It’s not sustainable to have paid only digital marketing without organic, so it’s sustainable for as long as you have cash to pay it.

Liel: [00:37:40] Right. And so what’s what’s the problem here is when people are only doing paid digital marketing and are not investing simultaneously in building a brand and driving traffic organically. What’s going to happen is that whenever they close the top of the page traffic, the entire business goes down the drain like there is now going to be more flow of new clients coming through. And so that’s why it’s very important. Yes, to leverage the power of paid digital marketing in platforms such as the search network to generate new clients now. But at the same time have other activities that even though they are paid, their main goal is to help you build a brand over time and drive organic traffic over time. Correct. So when you’re breaking down your pay digital marketing strategy, you need to look at what’s going to actually drive you results on the first week that you launch your strategy. And you should have that if you are in need to generate clients today. But you should also have a strategy in place that is helping you build your law firm, brand, and get yourself in front of people who may not need your service right now today, but could potentially be a client a year from now or two years from now. And so the more they see you, the more aware they are about you, the more they hear your message, the more likely they’re going to turn to you whenever today comes that they may need your services.

Liel: [00:39:20] How how does that feel to you, Grace?

Grace: [00:39:23] So, yes. So you basically agree with me, but did it at the same time. But it’s it’s true, right? Paid digital marketing is sustainable if you’ve got all the money in the world. Of course it is anything sustainable if you’ve got all the money. And but with the money turn off the tap, just like you said, that’s a perfect phrase. You turn that tap off. Guess what? No more flow. So that means no more clients. So you’re exactly right. And I agree with you. And so this, I think, perfectly turns into the next conversation, which is what is your goal again? Right. Where is your goal? What’s your goal? What are you trying to achieve? Do I need clients today? Do any clients right now? Do I need clients tomorrow? Do I want to simultaneously build my clients for later? But I need some today to make money right now and bring them in the door. Well, that perfectly leads into the question which platform is more likely to generate results for our law firm? And at the same time, having to do with the limited amount of leads. Where do you put your money in paid right Liel?

Liel: [00:40:28] That’s absolutely right, Grace. And so, yes, let’s let’s let’s give some system substance here to the listeners that what that’s our promise to them. That’s our commitment to them. That’s why we created this podcast, right. To give straight. Forward answers to complex questions, where to put your money in digital marketing, right? Where are you actually going to invest if you want to generate clients today? Right. We know that building a website doesn’t happen overnight. Driving traffic for that Website organically is not going to happen overnight. And you cannot just rely on your citations and reviews to do and carry the entire weight of your digital marketing by itself because it’s not sustainable as well.

Liel: [00:41:19] So what can you do to actually support your business, your law firms growth and generate clients today and at the same time build a brand for the long term? So how can we bring clients today? Grace, I let you and I’ll give you the owner of talk about my preferred platform of all the paid platforms online, please. Which one would that be?

Grace: [00:41:43] The search network heritage.

Liel: [00:41:45] Yes.

Grace: [00:41:47] Yes.

Liel: [00:41:47] Search, network.

Grace: [00:41:49] Let’s say it together, the search network, Liel.

Liel: [00:41:52] The most powerful network that there is to get info from the high intended users. So, Grace. Let’s explain why is the search networks so powerful and why can we generate from the search network clients the day that you launch your campaigns? How’s that?

Grace: [00:42:13] So, yeah, so I always go back to consumer behavior. Right. And psychology, I guess, to cut going back to my college days, I suppose, and analyzing how people do what they do and why they do it in the search network. Right. The search network is where you go to buy something. I mean, your usual intent when you go and you search for something and you look for something is to make an action. And if you’re clicking on an ad within the search network, you’re usually going to buy. Right. Then and there. So that’s just at the very high level. I’m going to let Liel talk more specifically because I know how much he loves talking about the search network. But I’m just going to like I just gave you just a little bit about how I look at it, because I think about myself every time I go and I do a search, you know, as the internal person inside of a law firm, I think about it that way. Whereas Liel, as an external agency can think about it from, I guess, the overarching more organized perspective. Right. So go ahead, Liel.

Liel: [00:43:20] Grace, I think your explanation is the best one. It’s exactly what you’ve said. Right. The search network is basically Google answering our questions. Right. We’ve grown used to going to Google to find answers and find solutions for our daily life needs. Right. So whenever I go to the search network and I search for a divorce lawyer near me, it’s because I’ve already made the decision that I’m getting divorced and I need to hire an attorney to make that happen. And when I click on an ad of a divorce lawyer near me that it’s advertising himself or herself so I can see them, I am actually just making the decision of whether I’m going to hire them or I’m going to hire somebody else. It’s a why that’s why it’s so important that your message, the way your message in your ad copy and your landing page experience translates to my search intent. Right. How does it connect to me? Because that’s going to be pretty much the deciding factor on whether I’m going to choose you or I’m gonna choose the next. Or I may gonna decide to go down to the organic search results. But the bottom line is that this is giving the opportunity.

Liel: [00:44:47] The search of work is giving businesses the opportunity to interact with people who are ready to buy from you and ready to hire you right now. Right, now, there are several things to keep in mind here. The search network is gonna work its purpose as long as your campaigns are well-crafted and you’re targeting the right keywords with the writing. Ok.

Grace: [00:45:12] Super important, guys. You need to pay attention to this section in particular search engines to remember that phrase.

Liel: [00:45:18] Super important. Why? Because I could also be a user trying to find out about some… The latest gossip on some socialite locally and want to read about their recent divorce. Right. And so if you’re a divorce attorney and are just targeting random keys and think that because you’re targeting the word divorce, every single search is going to be about divorce, about from people trying to hire a divorce lawyer. Well, you’re basically going to be showing your ad to a lot of people who are not necessarily gonna be interested in hiring you. And then you’re may think for yourself, well, but is there any harm if they’re not interested in hiring me, they’ll see my ad, but they’re not going to click on it. So, you know, there’s not really that much harm. Well, there is, because every time your ad shows and people are not clicking on it, your  click-through rate goes down. And when your click through rate goes down your cost per click goes up and it just all rivals our whole chain reaction. That’s not going to help you.

Liel: [00:46:22] Ultimately, it’s going to damage your quality score. So with that being said, the search network is extremely powerful, but you need to do it right in order to fully leverage. You need to know how to build a campaign, how to craft aconverting message and then how to well, where to send your users winder. Clicking on your ad. Right. And so I think, you know, trying to explain the entire process of building an effective search network strategy on five minutes in a podcast episode is not really going to do anyone a favor. However, for those who are starting to think about investing on digital marketing, here’s what you need to know. The search network is the one network that’s going to get you in front of high intend users that are likely to convert and turn into paid clients, providing that they meet the requirements that you need for them to become a client. Right. So that’s the one thing you need to know.

Liel: [00:47:28] So we that’s what you want and that’s what you need. Now, then, go and hire someone who can help you build this kind of effective strategy so you can see results. But ultimately, Grace, and we’re going to go back to what we were talking about when we were having the Website conversation… it all needs to tie down to results and to revenues. Right. If you cannot attribute your ad spend every single month to revenues that actually were generated or that our forecast that’s to be generated for your little firm due to the ads that you run, then there’s no point. There is no point in doing these kinds of strategies, not a search network strategy. OK. Now, so we’re talking so much about search networks, but are there any other platforms on paid digital marketing that we should be aware of? And if yes, Grace, why would we use those platforms and those kinds of strategies if it’s only the search network, the one that’s going to get us clients here and today?

Grace: [00:48:42] So back to pretty much at the beginning, right. We’re talking about building your brand and brand awareness. So these different phases of the lifecycle, I’d say, of a client, right. As a first get to know, there’s a three-part. Right. It’s called Know like trust. They have to get to know you. That’s brand awareness. They need to like you. That’s generally consideration. And then they need to trust you for them to buy from you. And that’s usually the trust is the point where it’s usually purchased intent at that point. Right. And so there are different styles on different places that you can put and different types of goal ads for the. Excuse me, goals for the ads that you set up in all of these different places. And that’s what you need to have in mind when you are doing this.

Grace: [00:49:34] So there are different places, as Liel just mentioned, and that will be display and display is where you build a brand awareness and you get them to kind of consider you and really get to know you a little bit more before they want to buy. And why is that important? So this is important because at that point is when at a later time they will come back to you or they might come back to you.

Grace: [00:50:00] If it’s good content, you’ve served them proper content, proper information. You answered a question. You took care of something for them in that what I call and what’s been called micro-moment. That’s when you can possibly capture them for a later date when they do decide to need a lawyer or when they do decide at that point. So that’s the display. Right.

Liel: [00:50:22] So let me let me confirm that I understood correctly what you’re saying here. So what you’re saying, Grace, is that people don’t necessarily convert immediately. Right. They interact and have multiple touch boards with a brand in order to reach the point of conversion. Right. So it may happen. It may happen. And we see that a lot in the search network, particularly that users see an AD, the the the message of the ad speaks to their search intent and they get the either call directly from the ad or they go into the landing page, which further reassures them and they convert from there. Right. They send their contact details to the law firm or they start a phone call. And so now they’re officially turning to screening or some sort of appointment for the law firm. But that’s not always the case. Sometimes what I’m hearing is that I can find your ad in the search network. I can click on it, I can read the content that’s on your landing page or on your Website. But then for whatever reason, decide that I’m not quite ready to convert and just continue and go on with my day and with my research. However, what you’re saying that the display network is going to do is that whenever I go to another Web site or the moment that I go to another platform such as Facebook, when you’re advertising on the display network or when you’re advertising on Facebook, you’re now also opening up yourself to the opportunity of reminding me about your brand and about your message. As I’m navigating to these other platforms or in these other pages, is that correct?

Grace: [00:52:16] Exactly right. So again, back to myself. Right, as a consumer. Think about when the last time you shop for a pair of shoes as an example and all of a sudden you didn’t buy the shoes. But even if you did buy the shoes, you’re getting followed around by ads for that particular pair of shoes or a million different kinds of shoes as you go from Facebook to even Parenting.com, if that’s something that they as part of the display network and that they are putting ads on there as well. So it’s it’s retargeting and that’s exactly right. That’s what I’m saying. So that you continuously remind them and you essentially stay top of mind as much as possible for those who didn’t cover immediately, but will and hopefully possibly do convert. Down the road.

Liel: [00:53:01] So, Grace, you know, I think retargeting is such a powerful strategy to implement. But the truth into reality is that not all practice areas allow for retargeting to be implemented. Right. Due to privacy or confidentiality. Right. Of course. For instance, we know that divorce law lawyers cannot retarget website visitors on Facebook and such. Right. Because it can lead to other problems.

Liel: [00:53:36] So are there any other ways that you can use display advertising or Facebook advertising to put your message in front of an audience that could be interested in what is it that you have to do or say?

Grace: [00:53:57] So, yes, you’re right. Retargeting is the wrong term to use for what we’re discussing exactly here also. So it’s more when I say retargeting, I was thinking more of a different definition. But the actual definition is what Liel is saying. It is that you are literally retargeting a list that you have already and you’re not allowed to do that.

Grace: [00:54:21] So what I’m saying is mostly looking at a demographic or in an area and showing them what you have to offer, not necessarily specifically hitting people up that are in your list. So that’s what I meant by retargeting. So I apologize. And that’s thank you for defining that Liel, because that’s exactly right. It’s not the proper term, but the right term. And in the display network would be as an example, if you’re on Parenting.com and you have a practice area that handles child care, negligence as an example, that’s somewhere you might want to be because people will then on the display network, find that and see them and see you on that display network ad.

Liel: [00:55:04] I love that, Grace. So basically what you’re saying is that you can actually use the display network in many different ways to put yourself in front of an audience that may be interested in your services.

Liel: [00:55:17] So, for instance, in this case, you’re saying I’m going to choose to show my banners, my ads in a particular page that I know has content that is relevant to my practice area. So that’s one way you can do it, right. But you can also choose to show your ads to other people. Sorry to a different audience based on other searches that they have run through Google. Right. That’s the power that Google is giving us. So whether they’re actually reading an article in Business Insider. Right. They can actually see an Ad from your law firm based on something that they search earlier in the week in Google that relates to your practice area.

Liel: [00:56:07] Furthermore, we can actually create audiences based on other behavior patterns, like, for instance, if you’re a personal injury attorney and you want to show your ads to people who’ve been to a body shop any time within the last 30 days, you can actually do that. You can actually tell a Google. “Hey, Google, I want my ads to be seen by anyone who has searched on Google Maps for a body shop and has been at the body shop over the past 30 days.” And Google will create this audience in no matter which Websites or pages they’re actually visiting. As long as they’re a part of the two million Websites that Google that the Google partner network has under their umbrella, you’re going to see your ads. Right. And so it doesn’t mean that every single person that’s going to see your ad that’s been to a body shop is going to be interested in your services. But guess what? Maybe some of them will and maybe they’ll click on it and maybe they won’t convert, but then they’ll see you again when they all go to another page and then they will see you again. If you also have Facebook pixel on your…

Grace: [00:57:14] So not to mean to interrupt, Liel. I know you’re in a good flow, but I think it’s super, super important to emphasize what you just said. Because that’s exactly right. If you post in, you have something on…It starts with a goal and your strategy and making sure you define what you’re trying to achieve. But exactly what you said about displaying and showing on a car body shop or going to work towards an audience that just went through to a body shop. They are very likely were in some sort of an accident.

Grace: [00:57:47] So these are very small things, but they’re so important to remember and important to think about. So that’s why we kept talking about goals. We kept talking about strategies and we keep talking about, you know, display network and search network. And, you know, it is these guys. We are law firms, right? This is these are lawyers. So we have to be super careful about how we target people. There is no personally identifiable information allowed.

Grace: [00:58:14] So you have to think outside the box a little bit like we all just said, that was awesome. Like, that’s something that I would you know, I would definitely do as a law firm. I would target body shops. Why not? That makes perfect sense. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt, but I thought that was just that was such an honestly. It blew my mind. The moment you said I’m like, da, why wouldn’t you?

Liel: [00:58:36] You’re welcome to all the personal injury lawyers who are going to implement this strategy.

Grace: [00:58:42] I was going to say you just got a serious tip, big guys. I mean, hopefully, you listen to all the way through. If not, you got to this part and you’ve heard this section because go and do it so great.

Liel: [00:58:52] Just to finalize the point on display in Facebook. Right. So, we understand that this kind of strategy is gonna help us build a brand, is gonna help us create awareness. It’s gonna help us put our message in front of people of an audience that are likely to be interested in our services, but not necessarily immediately. So does that mean, Grace, that we should be flexible about measuring results? Generated from these kind of networks, or we should steal a hung hold accountable. Our investment to actual generate results.

Grace: [00:59:36] You should always have a goal. To answer that question, if your goal is to convert them, possibly eventually, or is your goal to get them to see that ad, what is your goal? And that’s what’s going to define whether you drop something or you don’t. Does that answer the question?

Liel: [00:59:58] It does, it does, Grace, and I think I think it goes back to, you know, managing your expectations for each one of the marketing strategies that you have going on right the same way that you would implement an SEO strategy and you wouldn’t necessarily expect to see tangible results after three months or at least not be able to see results that are gonna rock your world in three months. You should also understand that while you should be seeing results and you should be able to measure performance on an actual count site, cases that are being generated for your from your presence on the display ads and Facebook, you you need to understand that obviously the conversion and retention rate is going to be lowered and for instance, your search network. So you need to have different goals. You need to understand what’s the potential and the main objective, what which one of these platforms. So you’re not getting disappointed when actually is when something is actually working but is just working at a different pace and at a different rate. And it’s actually going to be bringing in generating results more towards a long term than here into today that you would expect from the search network. What do you think?

Grace: [01:01:17] a 100 percent need to match your goals with what and expectations level set expectations with where you’re putting the money. 

Liel: [01:01:24] Excellent.

Grace: [01:01:25] Organic and display are going to take time. Search will be a more immediate.

Liel: [01:01:30] Yep. I guess we both agree on that. So to wrap things up, right. We want to make sure that we make it very, very clear for our listeners. What are the takeaways from having listened to this episode? What are the things, Grace, that our listeners can do? Right now, at the end of this episode, over the next few days, what can they do to set themselves for success in digital marketing for 2020?

Grace: [01:01:58] So the takeaways. And this is exactly what you can do as soon as you get off this episode and you go to your computer. You can start doing this yourself. You can do it immediately. And it’s something you can do right away to help you for twenty 2020 and today. So the takeaways are optimize your presence in directories, make sure that you’re clean across whether you use a YEXT service or you do it yourself. You make sure your citations and all of the information about your business and your firm is exactly the same across everywhere. Aim to be relevant on local search, meaning anytime somebody is looking for something, you have the content and information that they are looking for. It’s on there. How do you do that? You’re posting on Google My Business as often as possible with frequently asked questions. Any type of blogs or post answering different types of things that people have asked you? Possibly. And of course, review, generation reviews, reviews, reviews, reviews. I cannot emphasize that enough, guys, review generation. And then moving on to the next takeaway is what are your goals? And that honestly is for your website and paid digital marketing. Define your goals. Figure out what you’re supposed to be doing and decide exactly how to put the money and where you’re going to put the money. Depending on those goals that you’ve set for yourself and levels, set your expectations so that you’re not expecting a conversion on a display network today as opposed to the search network, which you could possibly get today. So is that pretty much wrap it up? There you have it.

Liel: [01:03:38] So, build citations optimize your Google My Business. Generate reviews, ask for them, create a process and stick to it. And then setting goals, setting goals and measure them and hold yourself and your marketing providers accountable for the leveraging on those. Grace, it’s been a pleasure talking to you. And we’ll be back next week. What are we gonna be talking about next week?

Grace: [01:04:07] So, yeah. Thank you for joining us in in camera private legal marketing conversations between us and the rest of you guys who join us. So our next episode is going to be on traditional media channels and we’ll discuss a little bit about, of course, digital coming first and then a little bit more about traditional media channels.

Liel: [01:04:26] That sounds great. Grace, so thank you very much all for joining us. And we’re excited to start off this new podcast. Please share your comments and we’re looking forward to meeting with you again next week on our next episode. Bye bye.

Liel: [01:04:46] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com We’ll see you next week.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

ICP Comments

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *