Two events, one topic, over three hundred first-time attendees, hundreds of vendors, and a few Mass Torts stealing the show. Welcome to our recap episode of 2021 Fall Mass Tort Conferences.

Grace and Liel review two back-to-back conferences with one thinking in common: Mass Torts. Grace shares her experience attending for the first timeWomen in Mass, an event held in Aspen, Colorado, gathering women from all backgrounds and roles that share their involvement in Mass Torts in some way or another.

Another event at the center of this episode was the much-awaited return of Mass Torts Made Perfect, an in-person event at Las Vegas, held last week after a two-year break due to, well, you know what. We discuss what is in and out in the Mass Torts world, among other things.

Resources mentioned in our episode:

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

Enjoy the show? Please don’t forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!


Transcript

Liel: [00:00:00] Two events, one topic. Over three hundred first-time attendees, hundreds of vendors and a few mastered stealing the show. Welcome to a recap episode of Fall Twenty Twenty One Mass torts conferences. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and author of Beyond Se Habla Español How Lawyers Win the Hispanic Market and This Is In camera podcast where we have been everywhere mass torts and conferences have been held. Welcome to in camera podcast, Private Legal Marketing Conversations, Grace, how are you today?

Grace: [00:01:01] Good, how are you, Liel?

Liel: [00:01:02] Doing very well and I do must say to everyone, Grace is joining us live from Las Vegas from The Bellagio at “Mass torts made perfect” because we are recording this on the last day of the conference. So how’s it going, Grace?

Grace: [00:01:14] Good. It’s actually been a very interesting conference, I got to say. Pretty fruitful.

Liel: [00:01:19] Ok. Elaborate a little bit. What do you mean by an interesting conference? Because that can mean a lot of things.

Grace: [00:01:24] So for us, it was pretty good in the sense that we had a double booth here. And, you know, with the expectation that potentially there could have been less people because of the whole COVID vaccine requirement and everything. But we went to the vendors meeting and they just said that there were seventeen hundred people of which twelve hundred were attorneys. And out of those, three hundred were first-time attendees ever.

Liel: [00:01:49] Wow, wow. That’s remarkable. I do must say Grace, I have, I know, at least one of our clients who is the first time attendee at “mass torts made perfect” this year. And another thing Grace, you know, maybe the perception that there may not have been a lot of people, maybe due to the fact that I think several attendees are doing a little bit of what I did, which is showing up for one day and then leaving just coming for part of the conference, not necessarily being all at the same time. So that may also give that feeling, but it’s really remarkable. If you were telling me that there is over one thousand three hundred people there, I think it’s fair to say that this is probably the biggest conference talking about national trial lawyers, PILMMA legaless  and any other conference. American Association for Justice, right? So no, that’s that’s pretty remarkable. That’s cool, Grace. So tell us a little bit about like what’s been going on in there is any talks, any conversations, any trending mass torts that are stealing the show.

Grace: [00:02:50] Yes. So I’d say probably two of them in particular. And then there’s like a third kind of new one that’s paraquat. Paraquat is that, you know, the application of the herbicide that’s has to be commercially applied. So they kind of brought that up. And it was very interesting to hear the side of what’s going on in the paraquat and mainly that there’s an 80 percent increased chance of a person that uses paraquat and the disease of Parkinson’s. So it’s, you know, science behind it is pretty strong. And but they do feel like it could potentially take a long time to settle on those. But it was, you know, it was interesting that they discussed paraquats, you know, we’ve discussed paraquats before on this show. But the other one that I thought was really interesting is Zantac. So. 

Liel: [00:03:38] OK

Grace: [00:03:39] They significantly reduced the list of cancers, and I kind of felt that might happen, mostly because they had prostate cancer. On their initially Tier two ductal carcinoma, which is breast cancer, they removed all but three cancers.

Liel: [00:03:54] Ok, that’s interesting, Grace. Because just this, actually. Just yesterday we got inquiries for Zantac cases, people who were getting into it. So what you’re saying is that people are gaining more confidence on these or they’re now because what I’m hearing here is that the list got narrower. So what does that mean that it’s becoming a harder master to get it to take off?

Grace: [00:04:17] Ok, got it more expensive because there’s stricter criteria, so everything is basically much more expensive and it’s going to be harder to get right because there’s been people been gathering these with that. A list of like 10 cancers

Liel: [00:04:31] Grace another one that I’ve saw very briefly, right? I was just kind of like passing by through it and that I need to kind my attention. I saw a sign about it and it was baby food, Grace, baby food,

Grace: [00:04:44] Baby formula.

Liel: [00:04:45] Yeah, formula, correct? Have you heard any updates on that one?

Grace: [00:04:49] Yes. So they actually created a special breakout session today because of it, because they weren’t sure. You know, there was a lot of multiple sessions that were kind of side by side at the same time, which made it a little difficult for some people to attend. And so they wanted to talk about ENFAMIL and what’s going on with the baby formula. Unfortunately, the breakout session is at a time that I had another meeting, but I did get to hear just a little bit about what’s going on with the baby formula and how that is causing, obviously, you know, issues in babies. And so this has become an extremely hot-button topic for people because this is children, right? This is pediatrics. It’s terrible. What’s potentially going to happen with these kids that are getting sick because of baby formula that’s supposed to be for people that are even these are special formulas that are pretty expensive.

Liel: [00:05:36] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s true. And Grace, is there any guidelines whatsoever as to what, what, how, what are the cases looking like? What are the issues that are going after? Do you know anything about that?

Grace: [00:05:48] So I do a little bit. It’s it’s called necrotizing enterocolitis. It’s so basically they’re saying these babies. Are developing a kind of colitis. Many of us know if we’ve had children or we, you know, I’ve seen anything having to do with babies, colitis is a lot of people are claiming that people could get a little bit of a stomach issues for the baby and that kind of thing. Well, this is supposed to be what’s called necrotizing enterocolitis when you have necro the prefix. And I know we immediately need a little nerdy here, but necrosis is like when something is dying, so necrotizing enterocolitis it just even. Not only does it sound bad, but what it’s happening is it specifically is causing symptoms, and they’re using this for premature babies. So these babies are already in a position that, yeah, they’re sick. Yeah, it’s terrible. It really is. It’s kind of scary, like what is doing to these children and I’m going to try and find like a layman’s definition for us so that we can as we continue discussing,

Liel: [00:06:53] Yeah.

Grace: [00:06:54] And pull that up.

Liel: [00:06:54] Yeah. But I must say that that’s probably one of the of the newest and most recent ones that at least I have heard of. I’ve heard it being mentioned maybe a month or so before “Mass torts made perfect”, but I was actually very um. It caught my eye to see that there was already a session that was going to go over that. That’s great, Grace. So what other news, how about the exhibitor hold? What things have been there? You said that it’s been busy for you guys. That’s great. I mean, it’s not surprising to me that software like PERSIST is going to be so relevant for mass torts. It’s kind of like central and essential for anyone who is in this business of trying to generate master leads. You have terrific communication systems because converting leads in mass torts is is, you know, the challenge is not getting the leads, it’s converting them. And so software like this can be your best friend. So what you’ve seen interest in Grace, what kind of conversations you’ve heard with law firms, what are the challenges they are having? Why? Why are there reasons why they were considering getting PERSIST? What are the pinpoints?

Grace: [00:08:00] So the pinpoints that I’ve seen and you know that we’ve been discussing with the many attorneys here and even some vendors, as funny as that is because they also have outreach that they have to do, right. Some of the call centers, so many people that deal with lead gen in general. 

Liel: [00:08:14] A 100 percent. 

Grace: [00:08:15] And they want to increase the conversion because that’s what they’re selling to law firms, right?

Liel: [00:08:19] People like businesses that are in the business of selling their retainers, they are. They’re in it.

Grace: [00:08:24] Exactly. So they need something like PERSIST as well. So it’s kind of been interesting in that it’s opened up not just for mass tort attorneys. There have been some a lot of first-time PI attorneys that want to get into mass torts.

Liel: [00:08:36] Yeah.

Grace: [00:08:37] So it’s from both sides and then the vendors. On top of that, they’re all like, “Wow”, PERSIST is this product that can automate it and get the conversion higher, which in turn they then tell the law firms that are their clients, “Hey, guess what? You can get better conversion if you use PERSIST.” So it’s been a very, very interesting and fantastic conference in that respect, where everybody not only knows who we are at this point, obviously, but that PERSIST is something that their clients can take advantage of as lead gen companies, which can then make them look even better because it’s squeezing every drop out of that lemon to make sure that they get every single person that they can out of their lead list, right? So like someone like you, right, that provides leads and landing pages as Hispanic legal marketing, if they use a product like this at the law firm, they’re going to squeeze every last dime out of what you’re spending for them.

Liel: [00:09:30] Yeah, a hundred percent, particularly when you’re dealing with lead lead form submissions and that sort of conversion type, it’s going to be super essential to have a great and timely, timely right being the key element here. Follow up, follow up system set up in place. So Grace, one thing you’ve mentioned there, so a lot of first-time attendees, that’s actually quite remarkable. Like that’s 300 you’ve you’ve said that’s you know, it sounds like about 20 percent of attendees this year are actually new mass torts. Grace, do you have a sense of where and how are these lawyers are more likely to enter the master scene? Is it going to be through Co-counseling? Is it going to be through investing or is it going to be by trying to be more hands-on? And find the leads, and, you know, take it to whatever level they can take it. What are what are you seeing trending a little bit more in terms of interest levels?

Grace: [00:10:33] So that’s a really interesting question because that’s actually it depends on where you’re at, right? A lot of the first-timers, if they already do their own trials but maybe not have gotten into mass torts necessarily some of them want to try their hand at it. You know, they like trying cases, so they want to do the whole thing, whereas I’d say the bigger percentage are the ones what I would call like a passive investor where they want to get involved, but they’re like, I don’t want to deal with it, I don’t want to do any of the casework up, I don’t want to do this, I want to do that. So because of Ed and Ed’s network and because he’s an attorney, he’s able to offer them a much higher percentage than they might get if they went out on their own and referred a case that they might have had. So most of them are not.

Liel: [00:11:18] That’s true. That’s true. That’s true. Leaders and mass torts, correct?

Grace: [00:11:21] Correct. Correct. So they seem to want that version a little better because that way you don’t have to work it up. And all all they have to do is put an invest a certain amount of money. They know they’re going to get X number of cases and they don’t have to worry about it until it’s done.

Liel: [00:11:35] Now what I’ve seen is that it’s becoming also a very popular practice among lawyers is that rather than each lawyer individually, coming up to invest on a particular master is that they’re grouping. They’re creating groups of maybe 10 or 15 lawyers, potentially from the same market, the same state, and got their phones together. And collectively, they make a more meaningful investment into a portfolio of mass torts. Are you seeing that being one of the venues that law firms are exploring? They are, you know, they’re coming more kind of like United as a group and trying to get into into a few mass torts that way or into a single mass tort. But rather than just making it one investment from one law firm, they’re just grouping up, putting up a bigger number, and coming through that way.

Grace: [00:12:34] So I’ve actually seen, I say, a bigger percentage are diversifying themselves into multiple torts so that they don’t put everything and all your eggs in one basket, right?

Liel: [00:12:44] Yeah.

Grace: [00:12:44] But there is also a decent amount of them that are getting together to have a bigger leverage on the number of cases that they’re able to purchase and also diversify. So people that tend to be a little bit smaller in terms of the amount of revenue that might feel a bigger hit if they give one hundred thousand dollars for some cases or something, they they will join up with other firms and they might become more investors in terms of what they’re providing for the money, for cases. So I’ve seen both of it, and I wouldn’t I couldn’t say if it’s like 50 50 or if it’s more people joining together. But I do see a lot of people that are joining with other law firms and trying to get in these mass torts that they might have never even looked at before. But because of the nature of everything happening, they want to get involved.

Liel: [00:13:37] Now Grace, let’s put a pause a little bit on what’s happening in Mass torts made perfect right now. But I would like us to tell us a little bit about the previous week that you’ve attended another conference also related to mass torts. But this was women’s in storage, correct?

Grace: [00:13:52] That’s correct, it is called women and mass, and it was. 

Liel: [00:13:55] Woman and mass, yes.

Grace: [00:13:56]  It was in Aspen.

Liel: [00:13:57] Excellent. So tell us a little bit about that. How it was what, what you learn, what you saw because this one was somewhat different for you, right? Because there was no booth. There was not exhibiting right was there?

Grace: [00:14:11] No, there wasn’t. There were no exhibitors.

[00:14:12] Oh, you were naturally attendee.

Grace: [00:14:14] I was an attendee with all the other women that were there at the same time. Yes.

Liel: [00:14:19] Excellent. So tell us about it.

Grace: [00:14:21] So it was interesting. It was my first time ever going to women and mass, and I was also under the impression that this was the first time that they did this particular format. So it wasn’t really there wasn’t a whole lot of sessions. They kind of give you more of an opportunity on the very first day, second day even to kind of go out with everybody. And it’s funny because anybody that knows me knows I don’t do yoga. But they had a yoga morning yoga session, and I was like, Guess what if I don’t have sessions and I have, I don’t have a booth, where am I going to meet people? So I went to yoga. Yeah, you can see pictures on Facebook. Me doing yoga. Well, actually after yoga, because you’re not going to see me doing yoga. But you know, it was very pleasant because they created an environment that was more for networking and talking to other women in this space than it was actually trying to sell anything. So it was both good and bad, right? Because as a vendor, you want that opportunity to speak to something. Right. So on that side of it, it was a little lacking. But. 

Liel: [00:15:28] Yea.

Grace: [00:15:28] On the networking side, it was quite lovely because they did a lot of hiking and they did some, you know, did a lot of events so that you could be involved with them and you could talk to the women.

Liel: [00:15:38] And it’s more like a social event for women that are involved in mass torts

Grace: [00:15:45] That’s pretty much right. That is correct. At least this I was told that it wasn’t like that before, but this is how this one was.

Liel: [00:15:51] Ok. So it was not a type of conference that you had sessions about the latest in litigation updates on case on particular torts, getting insights.

Grace: [00:16:04] Ok. They did. On the last day of the conference on it was Tuesday from 1:00 p.m. was the opening remarks and it ended at 5:00. So there was only a couple of sessions, maybe five of them, and they kind of went through what they called the new baby, the toddler, and then the gentrified cases. So, you know, they went over paraquat.

Liel: [00:16:27] That’s a really good way of actually benchmarking, right? The mass torts. It’s like where they are, what’s the stage? That’s that’s so good.

Grace: [00:16:37] That’s what I enjoyed. I have to say that was really cool because that’s the first time I’ve ever seen something explained in that manner. So I was like, Oh, really? That’s true. I mean, it’s the life cycle product life cycle, right? I mean, just in marketing in general, we all know about product life cycles. At least we do. But we never thought of the life cycle of a taut and kind of putting it in the same format of like a baby’s life, right? So it was very cool to see that. And it kind of gave me a new perspective of how these things are happening and how they think about them. Because, you know, Amy Wagstaff has been on Roundup and was one of the first when it came to getting those settled. So it was just an amazing perspective from all of these women and kind of what the way they see these things happening. It really was cool that part of it was really cool. It wasn’t a lot though, but it was good.

Liel: [00:17:26] So where is paraquat right now? Is it in childhood? Is it? Is it? Is it a toddler or is it becoming a teenager? Where is paraquat right now?

Grace: [00:17:36] It’s kind of a baby. It’s getting closer to being a baby. Yeah, yeah, it’s getting closer to being a toddler. I have to check because I’m not a lawyer, but I have to check and see if the dower has been passed or not, if it’s passed the dower standard, because that’s really the key to the start of mass torts. If it hasn’t done that, the dower hasn’t passed, then there’s not necessarily that there’s no worth to getting into it, but it’s definitely a lot more risky. So it’s still considered a little bit of a baby unless it’s passed dower, in which case it would be considered a toddler.

Liel: [00:18:08] And and give us an example of one that it’s already kind of like an adult. What what would that be?

Grace: [00:18:14] They consider Roundup gentrified. So that’s like much older, yeah, much older because it’s at the end of its lifecycle and their mind in terms of cases, fulfillment and everything.

Liel: [00:18:25] How about talcum powder? Has that come up?

Grace: [00:18:28] So very interesting fact that just happened. Talcum… Johnson and Johnson just filed for bankruptcy on talcum powder. Doesn’t mean they’re going to get it. Doesn’t mean that that their reason for the bankruptcy is going to mean anything because what they’re stating is that they want to find a resolution for all of the cases. And so that’s why they’re going to bankruptcy court, which, as you know, non-attorney myself. But as you know, working with attorneys, we know that that probably won’t hold up in court because it’s not so much that they care about settling. They just want to limit their liability and settle all of this in bankruptcy court. So they believe a lot of these attorneys believe after they saw that this is not something that’s going to stand potentially, and it’s going to take like two years and they’re going to appeal it and all kinds of things. So it just means get it done, get your cases filed, and put them in there. But it doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s a problem, but it’s definitely something to pay attention to. So talcum is in one of those weird spaces right now that, you know, they’re filing for bankruptcy. So it’s a yeah, it’s getting to the end, obviously.

Liel: [00:19:38] That’s really that’s very interesting, Grace, any other any other takeaways from your event? Women and mass.

Grace: [00:19:47] So yeah, I mean, from there, for me, it was just amazing to be able to meet all these amazing women and how there were vendors there too that were amazing women and they were all like running their companies. And honestly, it was just a whole other level of interacting with other people. And so I understand why they created it as a social event. I’d like to be a little more on the vendor side of things to be able to speak to people in a way that how we like to speak to people. So I would have preferred to be a speaker or something like that. But that’s OK. You know, I like being able to meet these women and you know, and Amy Wagstaff is an amazing, amazing person. So I mean, not just an amazing lawyer, but an amazing person. And this is that was her goal was to bring us all together and get to meet each other.

Liel: [00:20:32] And do you see now some of the participants at that conference being at this conference? Is there some overlap? Yeah.

Grace: [00:20:38] Yeah, right? Definitely. Definitely. Actually, a lot of the women I met there said they were coming to mass torts made perfect. Asked me if I was coming to mass torts made perfect, and we met up here after the conference. So that’s why I’m saying that for networking purposes, it was it was definitely a great situation to be in with other amazing women.

Liel: [00:20:56] Right

Liel: [00:20:57] And here I got to meet national trial lawyers for women, Nancy Holston. She’s amazing, too. And that’s something that I was able to take away from here that I’m going to get involved with because it’s just really cool.

Liel: [00:21:09] That’s very, very cool, Grace. So Grace today’s an express conversation. But we cannot let you go before you share with us a few takeaways that you can share with us. After having been in two very interesting conferences this past couple of weeks.

Grace: [00:21:24] So I think for me, the first takeaway was Network Network Network, right? You can’t ever have the opportunity to network without really being in person, which kind of sucks for a lot of us. I mean, those who may not have gotten the vaccine or whatever, but that’s the situation that we’re in right now. And if you can network network network, whether it’s through Zoom calls or in-person do it, you need to know it has just disconnected us so much from each other that we’re we’re starving for that connection.

Liel: [00:21:55] Yeah. And I just do add up there. I do think that these events, you know, being part of the value they bring is that it’s that opportunity to actually meet face to face to people that probably you wouldn’t send them a random invite for a Zoom call or otherwise. But here it gives you an opportunity to meet, you know, a lot of individuals that you can get a lot by having five, 10, 20-minute conversations with without necessarily having through the having to go through the processes of, you know, sending emails, scheduling a time and so forth and so on. And yet, you know, a lot of great things can come out of them. So I think you’re absolutely right there, and that’s really that’s really the value of it. That’s great Grace to more.

Grace: [00:22:40] So I’d say number two for me was process, and I know it sounds weird and kind of out of context.

Liel: [00:22:46] I love that word. I love that word. I love it. Grace. I’m yes, I’ve been hearing it like, it’s a very, very hot word right now here in this agency in which we are. And I’m really I’m going to shut up because I want to hear what you’re going to say.

Grace: [00:23:00] So we’re talking about pain points earlier in this podcast right now, and that was such a major pinpoint that I think a lot of them knew they had, but they have no idea how to fix it. And so they were like, How do I create process? How do I fix the how do I have automation? How do I? How do I? How do I, how do I, right? And so for me, it was it was such a big pinpoint to realize that there’s a lot of people and a lot of law firms that have legacy information, legacy data, legacy systems that they’re trying to get to now, and they’re struggling in the process. And so, you know, look as PERSIST. You know, our biggest thing is to fix, not fix your process or reinvent it. It’s to streamline and take out bottlenecks. So to hear that from all of these attorneys, literally, every single one has some kind of efficiency issue that they want to solve, whether it’s at the front of the process, middle or end of the process, it’s process. So I think being able to speak to a lot of them and have them understand that PERSIST itself and just the way we do things process is key to success. That was just a really interesting thing for me. And so I want everybody to hear on here. That process is key and you need a process. Do it.

Liel: [00:24:15] Yeah.

Grace: [00:24:15] So your part, I want to hear what you have to say.

Liel: [00:24:18] No, I agree with everything that you have to say grades. And I think, you know, my my whole point with process is that having good sound test and proven systems in place and processes in place is what’s going to allow you to be consistent in the results you are getting get better and scale. Right, particularly when you are dealing with something like mass torts when for it to be done right, for it to yield results, it needs to be done with the volume. You cannot get into it without actually having the infrastructure to handle it and otherwise otherwise you’re you’re going to end up leaving a lot of money on the table and it’s not going to be worth it for you. So I definitely think that it’s very applicable term to be used when it comes down to getting ready for mass torts, Grace. Give us one more takeaway before we let you go, because today you need to get ready to go back home right after, you know, having been in and out all of these weeks because before women in mass, you had also PILMMA Super Summit. So I’m sure you’re looking forward to a couple to a few weeks of not having to travel. 

[00:25:32] Two weeks. And then I’m back here at Mandalay Bay for Trial Lawyers University.

Liel: [00:25:36] Wow, Grace, I didn’t know you were going to do Trial Lawyers University. I just found out about it right now. Did you just find out about it also recently?

Grace: [00:25:44] We we just picked the date today.

Liel: [00:25:46] Right.

Grace: [00:25:46] So yes, I am coming back here to Vegas.

Liel: [00:25:49] But so that’s an interesting event. That’s an interesting event. We were invited also to to be part of it, but we were already committed at great legal marketing. That’s happening, right, exactly at that same weekend. So that I’m really looking forward to your feedback on that one. But anyway, listen, two weeks, two weeks, right?

Grace: [00:26:06] Yeah, take it. I take a day, you know, I mean, whatever I can take, I’ll take because I mean, back to back from PILLMA to women in mass, literally one day in between was brutal. So, yeah, I see my last the last take away would be get involved in one of these events, whether it’s on the vendor side or as an attorney, you got to do your due diligence as an attorney and try to get into mass torts if you can. I don’t say it’s for everybody because it is. It’s always will be a gamble. It’s a logical and potentially, you know, as an attorney, you have all this information that you can make an informed decision as a consumer. But I think you should if that’s something that you need to look into. And we have white papers and on the lake law firm side of things our content manager does, Lindsay does all these white papers on everything that’s coming out, including like CoolSculpting. And, you know, we’re going to have her doing on the…

Liel: [00:27:06] From the CoolSculpting. What happened to that? Has that been mentioned?

Grace: [00:27:11] No, it’s very quiet right now,

Liel: [00:27:13] OK. 

Grace: [00:27:13] I think it’s because it’s so, so new. And the only reason that even blew up a tiny bit was because of the evangelista and coming out and talking about the last five years of her being stuck. So I think people should look into it, see if it’s something for you. But it definitely bears a conversation or a review of something, because if you can get your own mass torts and actually mass torts a to Z, the book I have a chapter in there called data mining, which is what I spoke on at PILMMA. And that is that is mining your own database for gold, which is mass torts. So even if you don’t go ahead and buy them, there’s a way for you to do this organically. And so I think people, someone should get involved in it. And even if you refer them out to lead counsel on a steering committee,

Liel: [00:27:58] Yeah, that’s true. I also wrote a chapter in that book, Grace. Thank you very much for inviting me to do it. It was great and I was very, very happy, honestly, to see it kind of like really getting officially released right when I had a chance to see you this past Wednesday in Vegas and at the party and see everybody carrying their copy and such, how great. It certainly made me feel very special and know that, hey, I’m so glad and happy that I was able to be part of that. So Grace, thank you so much for a great conversation, for great takeaways, for allowing us to have a deeper insight as to what’s been going on on two very interesting events that have to do with mass torts. And we will be back next week with another conversation, right?

Grace: [00:28:40] That’s right. We’ll be back next week.

Liel: [00:28:42] All right, Grace. Thank you very much. Bye.

Grace: [00:28:44] Bye, thank you.

Liel: [00:28:46] And if you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your coworkers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at: ask@incamerapodcast.com We’ll see you next week.

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