In this week’s episode, we are joined by a former lawyer, now turned podcast master, and strategic relationship builder expert to discuss why law firms need to change their lead generation.
John Corcoran joins Liel for a conversation on using podcasts as a tool to expand and strengthen your network as a way of improving the quality of the leads you are generating, increase brand awareness, and position yourself as a thought leader.
John explains why starting a podcast should not be an overwhelming process and how you should set priorities about allocating time and resources for this project. Furthermore, he explains the five different types of content you should be publishing in your podcast.
So if you ever wondered what it would take to start your podcast and generate content in a completely different way than the rest of your competitors are doing, this episode is for you.
It’s time you raise your law firm’s antenna!
Resources mentioned in our episode:
- Rise25 – Your key to starting your podcast
- Smart Business Revolution Podcast
- Audio-Technica AT2005USB Cardioid Dynamic USB/XLR Microphone
Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com
Enjoy the show? Please don’t forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!
Transcript
Liel: [00:00:00] Twenty eight percent or 80 million Americans are weekly podcast listeners, which is 10 million more than the number of Netflix subscribers in the US. And if that was not impressive enough, the average podcast listener turns to eight podcasts per week. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and author of Beyond Se habla Español How Lawyers Win the Hispanic Market and This Is In camera podcast where we network and build relationships that move us forward.
Liel: [00:00:56] Welcome, to in camera Podcast, private legal marketing conversations, Grace could not be with us here today, but we still have a great conversation lined up for you. So without further do, please allow me to introduce our next guest. I am thrilled to welcome John Cochrane for a conversation on building relationships and podcasting for law firms. John is a recovering attorney and writer, author, father of four, and former Clinton White House writer and speechwriter to the governor of California. Throughout his career, John has worked in Hollywood, the heart of Silicon Valley, and ran his own boutique law firm in the San Francisco Bay Area, catering to small business owners and entrepreneurs. He is the author of three books about relationship building and client acquisition and has written for Forbes, Entrepreneur, Business Insider, Lifehacker, the San Francisco Chronicle, and basically anywhere else that will let him. He has been the host of the Smart Business Revolution podcast since 2012, through which he has interviewed hundreds of CEOs, founders, authors, and entrepreneurs from Peter Diamandis and Adam Grant to Gary Vaynerchuk and Marie Furlaud. John, welcome to in camara podcast, and thank you so much for creating this time.
Liel: [00:02:11] I mean, it’s exciting to have you here, not only do I know you from a mastermind that we were both together part of, but I’ve also been at podcasts of some of your clients. And so it is a real honor to have you here. And the conversation we’re going to have about is about three very relevant topics for our audience, which one of them is lead generation. The other one is going to be building strong relationships for business. And then the value and the opportunity that lies in podcasts, which is something that particularly in this industry and when we’re talking about consumer-centered lawyers, is still a massive opportunity that is yet to be tapped by many of these law firms. So let’s start with the lead generation part of it. Everybody wants more qualified leads, and it’s just getting harder and harder to get them, right? Whether it’s through organic or through pay means. Now, what are some of the mistakes that you see, particularly lawyers making frequently when it comes down to lead generation?
John: [00:03:24] Sure. And you know, I can say as a former attorney that I probably made all of those mistakes, right? So one of the big ones is just kind of a one size fits all approach. You know, I spent a lot of time going to Chamber of Commerce meetings talking to people that were the wrong types of people, Big Bar Association events where you’re talking to the wrong people. So not a targeted approach, but just a spray and pray type of approach. And I think that’s what a lot of lawyers end up doing. They’re not either they’re not clear on who exactly is the right type of person for them, whether it’s a client or a referral partner or strategic partner, or they just kind of broadly try and spray, pray, try and find anyone you know that they can they can get to. So I’ve made all those mistakes myself. What I prefer much more these days is to be much more targeted. Be really clear on who are the types of people that you should be talking to that you should be building a relationship with and then to use a tool like a podcast or other. There are other tools out there as well, but I think a podcast is the best one to do in order to build relationships with the right types of people. And as you pointed out, yes, we are. You know, it’s funny because lawyers were the last ones to adopt fax machines. They were the last ones to adopt websites, right? I mean, like in the in the nineties, you know, I mean, every different business in town had a website before a law firm did. They thought it was sleazy or something like that, and it’s going to be the same way with podcasts. You know, flash forward to like, probably 10 years from now, every business is going to have a podcast. I would even argue that a podcast is more important than a website in some ways because, unlike a website, a podcast actually helps you to build great relationships one on one with people. And so I recommend it for every lawyer out there.
Liel: [00:05:12] So you’re saying. A mistake has been made by kind of like just shooting out all directions and hoping that somebody something is going to stick and something’s going to come out of it. Now you’re saying a better way to go about it now is to be more strategic about the way that you go about building relationships and where you’re going to look and find leads. So podcast, you’re mentioning as a way, as a tool, as a resource to do that. Is there any particular way that you can actually use a podcast for the purpose of lead generation?
John: [00:05:43] Yeah, definitely. And actually, what I would say is that a lot of people, they think directly like, they think, “OK, I’m going to record a podcast and I’m going to upload it, and then I’m going to get a ton of downloads and people are going to email me and they’re going to want to hire me, right?” But sometimes you need to go more indirect, and that can be a more effective strategy because not everyone, everyone’s going to be Joe Rogan. Not everyone’s going to be the biggest podcast out there. And there’s a lot of big mainstream media companies like NPR, CBS, ESPN, Disney, big, big companies that are spending a lot of money in the podcasting space these days, and they’re trying to grab market share at the top of the charts. But you don’t need to be at the top of the charts in order to leverage that strategy. So let me give you an example. So let’s say that you’re a consumer attorney. Let’s say that you want to network with other consumer attorneys to be very. To network with them and to explain what you do because then you get referrals, you get leads.
John: [00:06:40] That’s that sort of thing. Well, if you use a podcast and you interview, let’s say, the head of a consumer attorneys group, whether it’s a bar association or a state-level type of attorneys, consumer attorneys, type of group and you build a relationship with that person and then they bring you in as a speaker at their conference, or they bring you in to do a webinar or tell a seminar or something like that, or even the guest blog post on their website that could produce a ton of leads for you. It could produce a lot of people that are interested in knowing more about what you do. It’s a little indirect, right? It’s not directly get downloads, get people emailing me directly. But if you go and you get to speak at their annual conference and you’re speaking in a room full of three hundred consumer attorneys, that’s a great result for you. And that’s going to lead to a lot of leads. So you want to think about it that way. Who can I build relationships with? That’s going to lead to those types of opportunities,
Liel: [00:07:37] And that actually makes a lot of sense, right? Because it basically defines what the purpose of the podcast is, because the other, I guess we can call it, a misconception that exists out there is that people think that the podcast model of creating a podcast for business purposes would be more in line with building an audience and then trying to sell ads inside your podcast as a way to monetize, right? What I’m hearing here is that that’s not really the goal, correct?
John: [00:08:04] Yeah, you know, I liken it to its kind of like an iceberg. When people think of an iceberg, they think of the top, top of the iceberg. But the truth is, there’s 90 percent or something like that of icebergs is actually below the surface. So they’re not thinking about that. There’s a lot more to it. Podcasts are kind of the same way. Most people, when they think of podcasts, they think of marketing. They think of it as just a kind of top-level exposure or they think about monetizing with ads. They think about getting downloads and then selling sponsorships. The truth is, there are a hundred different ways in which you can benefit from doing a podcast beyond just getting downloads, and most people are not pursuing that strategy anyways. So when you do a podcast, you are positioning, you’re doing branding, you’re educating yourself, you’re meeting a great person. You may form a great strategic partnership with that person or a referral relationship with that person. You’re up-leveling your network, you are doing personal development, you’re creating content. So you’re doing content marketing, which can help you with SEO. By putting more content out into the world, you’re getting more traffic back to your website. You have a way of delivering value to your clients. You have a great way of delivering value to your referral partners. So there are a lot of different benefits to actually doing a podcast beyond just, you know, trying to monetize it by getting downloads and then selling sponsorships.
Liel: [00:09:30] I think it would be interesting to hear I care about your opinion with regards to models like the patreon one where you’re again now creating content. Most of patron models come from a baseline where you have some free content and then you have some more premium content that is by membership. What is your take on that? And is that something that we should be keeping our eye on or when you’re in the B2B or the need to see model?
John: [00:10:01] Yeah, I mean, for most attorneys, I think that would be mostly a waste of time unless you end up for some weird reason getting a big following in a very niche-focused narrow area where people really care passionately about. Add in you get people who would be interested in paying you, but this statistics a few years old, but there was a statistic that something like ninety nine percent of all, you know, people that were on those types of platforms, not just Patreon but other ones as well, because there are other ones, you know, they make less than minimum wage if you if you add it up from getting contributions. So it’s a tough one to make work. But also, you know, if look, if you are a personal injury attorney and your average case is worth six figures or more to your firm, then that’s just a complete waste of time you should be maximizing for that, maximizing for getting more, you know, high caliber cases in the door. That’s really what’s going to be most valuable for you and best use of your time.
Liel: [00:11:04] You’re talking a lot here about time, making the best use of your time and such. Now we have a podcast right where you’re being interviewed in it right now.
[00:11:14] We are in the middle. Oh yes.
Liel: [00:11:16] And the truth is, that’s producing a podcast. Well, those take some time. What would you say for someone who is thinking, Yeah, I can see myself using these as a way of building relationships, building authority, creating and promoting the brand? Yeah, but I just don’t have the resources. I don’t have the team to take care of it.
John: [00:11:37] It’s a great question. It’s a great question, especially for lawyers who value their time. And that’s all that they have, right? That’s the most important thing. I will say that I made the mistake for a long time of being too intimately involved in that. And even though I did hire some people to do different pieces like editing the audio and things like that, I was overseeing it. And so I was the bottleneck. And if something went wrong, I had to solve it myself. In retrospect, I think that was a total mistake. I should not have done that. And for lawyers again, who if you have a case value of over six figures, two hundred thousand five hundred grand, whatever it’s worth, it’s even worse for you to be spending time on that. You shouldn’t be doing that. So hire a company like ours or some other company that’s going to do it for you. There are plenty out there that can do it for you. Make sure you get a good one. Make sure you [00:12:25] feed them, [00:12:26] but have someone else to do it for you because your time should be spent on the highest and best use of your time. And if you do that, it will save you time. You know, some people don’t believe me when I say this, but you know there’s many ways in which a podcast will save you time as long as you’re not the one who’s writing up the audio notes.
John: [00:12:47] You know who’s editing the audio, which you shouldn’t be. If you’re not doing those things, it will get you access to a higher caliber of people that you would otherwise get access to. It’s a way of delivering value to those people, and rarely, as an attorney are you doing something where your time is actually serving multiple purposes at once? Usually you’re you’re you know, you’re drafting a brief, you’re reading a brief, you’re reading case law, you’re meeting with the client. Those are all things that you’re where you’re doing one activity at a time. But when you’re doing a podcast, you’re uploading your network, you’re doing referral marketing, you’re generating content which will serve its purpose across multiple different channels. If you do it right, you can put it across social media. It can be there’s SEO value to it, there’s professional development value to it, there’s personal development value to it. So in other words, what I’m saying is that it’s rare that your time is actually doing multiple things at the same time. So there’s many. So that’s that’s a big part of the reason that I say that a podcast will save you time, not take your time. If you do it right.
Liel: [00:13:49] Now let’s suppose that for those who are listening to this and they’re feeling more encouraged now, they say great to know that there is already a company like [00:13:58] [00:13:58]Rise25 that can help you launch your podcast, manage it, produce it and publish it. Now, how do you actually make decisions about the format, the frequency? So why don’t we start by talking about the format, right? What are the different types of podcasts that you can…?
John: [00:14:17] Great question.
Liel: [00:14:17] For shows that you can actually create.
John: [00:14:19] Yeah, great question. So first of all, there’s five different types of content that we recommend people to create, and one of the mistakes that a lot of people make when they start a podcast is that they only create one of those types of content, so quickly, the five are feature interviews, perhaps of a prospective client thought leadership, which is where you’re sharing your wisdom with the world on your own show. The third is client spotlight, so an existing client having them come in edifying them in a way, putting them on a pedestal by sharing their wisdom, which is also really a form of of a case study as well. And social proof. Fifth Fourth is referral partners, so interviewing someone who could be a potential actual referral partner or potential referral partner. And then the fifth is authorities in your field or your industry. And so what I see a lot of times is people will only choose one of those and they’ll only create that one type of content, which is OK. You end up leaving a lot of opportunity on the floor, so to speak. So a lot of times people will go and they just try and get bigger and bigger guests and they’ll interview authors and speakers and things like that.
John: [00:15:27] But you know, I’ve interviewed some pretty big guests over the years. Some, like, you know, b level celebrity types of people or internet-famous type of people, you might say. And you know, honestly, like if someone’s been interviewed on 50 other shows, a hundred other shows, have they been interviewed in mainstream media? It doesn’t. It’s not that meaningful to them to be interviewed on another podcast. And so they’re not that motivated to repay the favor. Whereas if you interview someone whose story hasn’t been shared as widely, who might have an amazing story to tell and you have a great time of it, you know that person is going and telling their spouse, they’re telling their friends they’re they’re thrilled by it. They’re excited. And then it leverages the principle of reciprocity because they want to reciprocate. They want to repay the favor to you, and they want to introduce other people to you. And so it actually can be a lot more meaningful to feature those types of people rather than to just interview the big famous people up there. So those so I recommend those five different types of content for people to create.
Liel: [00:16:28] All right, now, let’s talk about the frequency. How frequently should you be publishing new episodes?
John: [00:16:33] Yeah, I think of it holistically in terms of a year. So look at look at a year. Ok, so you know, people ask me sometimes, well, I only want to do a monthly podcast once a month, right? Over the course of the next 12 months, if you do a monthly podcast and maybe you miss some months because you have vacation or whatever or something like that, you do 10 interviews, 10 reviews. Does that move the needle in your business? Probably not. Is that going to move the needle in terms of uploading your network with connecting with new people? Potential referral partners, strategic partners, potential clients? Probably not. Whereas if you were to do like a weekly podcast, which is kind of what listeners expect in terms of a weekly frequency for most shows out there, you’re producing content on a regular basis. Even if you take some vacations, some holidays you know you’re producing, let’s say, forty forty-five people, you’re connecting with. If you’re if you’re connected with the right types of people, if you are using clients, referral partners, strategic partners, that’s going to move the needle in your business, that’s going to have a real, meaningful difference for your business. I’m speaking from experience because, you know, five years ago or so, one year, I only put out seven episodes and it was because I was stuck in the in the process. I was doing it myself. My business partner helped me and he had much more experience with me. He’d worked with one of the early business podcasts as their senior producer. He helped me revamp my process and I put up fifty two episodes the next year, one per week, and it made it a massive difference. I was focusing on the right things, not the wrong things. So usually I recommend for people a weekly cadence because that’s what’s going to move the needle for your business.
Liel: [00:18:09] So weekly episodes and then have a variety of episodes styles, right? You have the ones where you can record by yourself because that’s another thing, right? You see a lot of podcasters who are out there creating episodes, but they’re only interviewing. They hardly ever have an opportunity to really share their insights.
John: [00:18:32] Right.
Liel: [00:18:32] And so that would fall kind of kind of on a missed opportunity sort of scenario.
John: [00:18:37] Yeah. So I put that under thought leadership as a category. So sharing your own thought leadership, but on rather than being a guest on another show like we’re doing here, sharing it on your own feed and the advantage of that is, you know, you have people that are listening to you most of the time. If you’re interviewing other people, you’re sharing their wisdom, but you’re not sharing your own unless you’re weaving into the conversation. So it’s an opportunity for you to share your own wisdom on your own feed with the people that have chosen to subscribe and to listen to your podcast. But here’s the rub. It’s really hard to just talk into a microphone and just record an episode. I’ve literally done it probably four or five times in 12 years of doing a podcast because it’s so boring and I don’t want to do it and there’s other things to do. Why would you just talk about it? Kind of kind of boring. Very few podcasts that podcasters that try and create that kind of show last very long. Usually, it’s like 10 12 episodes and then they get bored and they stop doing it right. So I don’t recommend creating that type of show. I recommend uploading your network by doing interviews. And when you do want to create a thought leadership episode, have someone interview you? So what we do in our company is we have interviewers and we interview our clients as a thought leadership episode for their own show. Because it’s more accountability, it’s more likely to get done. It’s easier to get done and it’s more interesting. Frankly, it’s more interesting to listen to a two-way conversation than to listen to a one way conversation for the listener.
Liel: [00:20:08] Yeah, that’s that’s actually pretty true. I very recently was invited to give a talk on Hispanic marketing for law firms, right? And as I was preparing for the presentation, I kept thinking to myself, How much easier would this be if rather than this being a presentation, it would just be kind of like a panel where I’m sitting there with another person who’s asking the questions, right?
John: [00:20:34] Yeah
Liel: [00:20:34] It would be so much easier. But I agree there is a lot of a working effort that needs to be put into creating solo, good-quality content.
John: [00:20:45] Yeah.
Liel: [00:20:45] And so I definitely see how people who are taking that approach, they just either get bored or exhausted by having to do that. So great. We talked about how to build or draft the programming of your podcast, the format. Now let’s talk a little bit about the length of the episodes because you’re producing a lot of podcasts. You probably have a lot of data. What works? What’s the right duration?
John: [00:21:13] Well, you know, what’s probably most common is about a 30-minute show, and I think what that’s attributable to is that a lot of people will pass or will say that, you know, the average commute is about 30 minutes. Of course, you know, we’re recording this in October of twenty twenty-one, and during the pandemic, commutes have kind of disappeared, but also not everyone listens to podcasts while commuting. They listen to podcasts while they’re doing the dishes. They you know, they’re walking the dog, they’re exercising. There’s lots of other different ways. So but the way I look at it again, I look at things a little bit differently. The way I look at it is if you have a certain amount, we all have limited amount of time to devote to a podcast. Most people are doing it as a side thing. It’s not their main thing. And so they’ve plenty of other things that they need to do. So if you look at holistically over the course of a year, how much time you’re going to spend on something, you know, if you were to do really long episodes like there are some outliers that do to our shows, you know, things like that and you’re doing an interview with someone. You’re building a relationship with one person, one guest on the other end of the microphone, and it’s one topic for your listenership.
John: [00:22:28] I would rather diversify it. I’d rather if you have a two-hour chunk of time, I’d rather you meet two people or three people in that period of time. And over the course of the year, that really makes a big difference. So if you have one hundred hours in a year that you’re going to devote to use around no to doing a podcast or it’s twenty-five hours you’re going to devote to doing a podcast. If you do 30-minute shows versus hour-long shows, you’re building relationships with twice as many people. So I would rather you, you, you use the podcast as a tool to connect with a larger group of people because that will have a bigger impact. And again, it goes back to the year that I did seven episodes, even though it was intending for it to be a weekly show. Those are 30-minute episodes, but I was just there was too much time spent on all the other stuff. And then the next year, when I when I outsource much more of the work, I had a team that was doing it, train the team and then I was doing it. You know, I did. Fifty-two episodes, that was way more people building many more relationships and had much more of an impact.
Liel: [00:23:26] I think what you’re saying there also is kind of like you’re thinking methodically about how many hours you’re going to invest into creating your podcast over a period of a year. Now how do you go about when you’re advising your clients? Do you set up an hour every week and you stick to that? You have some flexibility what you’ve seen that for the sake of consistency then?
John: [00:23:51] Yeah, you know, I don’t I think most people just work it into their schedule when they can, because especially if you’re interviewing other people, you’re going to have to have to have some kind of flexibility based on their schedule. So I just recommend, you know, deciding when you want to do this. Like personally, I don’t like showing up in the office and first thing in the morning doing an interview. I’m not fresh like I need a little time to get some coffee in me and stuff like that. So I prefer to do that. Like in the afternoon, I prefer to use the mornings for heavier, deeper work and then do interview conversations in the afternoon, so decide when you want to do it. Set up a calendly for sure to make it super easy. That will be critical if you want to do maximize the number of interviews that you do and not get bogged down and back and forth scheduling and things like that. And these little things make a big difference. Streamlining the process so that you don’t get bogged down in the process is really important. Yeah, I think that would be would be my my main main tip on that
Liel: [00:24:53] I have certain flexibility, but still have the commitment to make sure that you’re creating enough content so you can stick to your schedule.
John: [00:25:02] Yeah. And you know, I mean, I and a lot of our clients are this kind of the same way is we’ll just, you know, sometimes work ahead. You know, you have busier seasons and you have not as busy seasons and the summer, maybe you taking some vacation so you don’t have as much time to do interviews. So you know you might do more in a certain period of time. One week you might do three and then you go two weeks without doing interview any interviews and then you do two that week and then you do none, you know. So I think being more flexible and then that’s the nice thing about it is that you could you could cram-in a bunch of interviews in one week. And then, you know, the way we approach it, at least, is, you know, you upload your audio, the team takes over and then you have four weeks of content that’s coming out. So while you’re often doing different things, busy with other things or running your business, you’ve got consistent content that’s being dripped out to people who are listening to it and you’re you’re pushing it out on social. So you have a presence and things like that. So, you know, like Gary Vaynerchuk is famous in the marketing world, and I interviewed him years ago and I interviewed his right-hand man, James Orsini, who is the CEO for many years. And I said, it’s crazy how much content he creates, how does he do it, how does he run his business? And James said the crazy thing is he runs his business. He spends the majority of his time running his business, which seems unfathomable when you look at how much content he creates. But the reason is, is because he, you know, he’s very efficient with this content creation. You know, he goes in and creates content and then it gets stripped out at such a steady pace that you think the perception is that he’s constantly creating content, but he’s not. He’s running his business, and that’s how it can be for everyone these days.
Liel: [00:26:50] Yeah. And there’s a lot of content repurposing there as well, right? And I think that’s one of the great things that podcasts give you, right? Because while it may be a podcast that is primarily being consumed through podcast platforms, be that Apple Podcasts or Spotify your choice. You can also use it on social networks through little audiograms with video and with captions. And so obviously, you know your extending the mileage of your podcast and you’re using it also as content for other social media platforms. And that’s really the, you know, I guess the smart thing to do when you are also creating podcasts, right?
John: [00:27:28] Absolutely.I highly recommend that. And you know, my business partner, when he started his podcast 12 years ago, he immediately went straight to video and has been publishing everything up to YouTube since then. I didn’t. I was inconsistent with video, and then I started hearing just, well. First of all, YouTube is the number two search engine out there, so you need to have a presence out there because when someone out there says your name and recommends that a prospective client calls you, first thing they’re doing is they’re googling your name and they’re looking you up on YouTube and they’re looking you up on LinkedIn, whether you like it or not, whether you’ve even touched these places, they’re looking you up in these places, so you should be building a presence there. And so definitely recommend putting content onto YouTube. Putting it on to LinkedIn if you go check out my page on LinkedIn John Corcoran, you’ll see I create, we create multiple of these. We share them throughout the week, you know, as you said, taking this content and repurposing it multiple different ways in terms of videos and interactive, dynamic audios, still images, quotes, all that kind of stuff. Now, having said that big asterisk, big caveat. You don’t need to do all this stuff. You can do all this stuff, but usually when you’re getting started and we’re also usually when we talk to clients, we’re talking them down, we’re talking them out of all that extra stuff because that’s additional complexity. And usually when you get started with a podcast, the best thing to do is to just get started wherever you can start and to focus on that piece and focus on having a great conversation with great people, meeting great people through the podcast. And then all that back of the funnel additional leverage marketing that you can do, you can worry about adding that stuff, layering that in later.
Liel: [00:29:19] Actually, very, very good advice and one that I would 100 percent also give other people is start with small steps. The first thing is, get those conversations scheduled and record it. That’s step number one, right? And then getting them published. And then you start promoting more as you can, as you are, you know, mastering the older tasks, the other activities, and you are becoming more available in fluent at doing all of the other marketing work. Now, John, let’s just some fundamentals because you see people some some have websites that are fully dedicated for their podcast. Some other people, they just take their existing website and they add a little tap for the podcast. What would you like? So, so people can actually take advantage of using already existing digital assets? Where do they plug their podcast? Where should ones podcasts live?
John: [00:30:16] It should absolutely be on your main website, and the reason for that is because, you know, Google heavily favors websites that are creating fresh content and too many websites, especially law firm websites. Many law firm websites are just static brochures that are put up on the internet, and they’re not creating fresh content. Even if you think that you, “oh, I need to write a blog post” You probably have written one for six months. And so this is the easiest way to talk out your content, upper-level your network at the same time and create fresh content that goes on to that website. A lot of people make the mistake of creating a separate website where they just put the podcast or they go in, and that’s OK if you’re intending it to be kind of a standalone business. But not not not really what we’re talking about here. And then the other mistake is to use like one of these different web hosting platforms, audio hosting platforms that will give you a free post that that goes basically on their domain. And so you just use that because it’s the easy kind of lazy thing to do, and you can just put your show notes in and publish your episode on there. That’s a mistake, too. You should be creating a direct.
John: [00:31:26] Podcast post on your website and creating that fresh content on your website, which will help with SEO, will help with the increasing traffic, will help with increasing awareness and then one other thing that I didn’t mention about YouTube one of the other advantages of YouTube is YouTube has something called key moments, which is increasingly, you’ve probably seen this, when you Google something, you will see highlights from different videos that are woven into the search results page on that coveted first page of the search result for whatever keyword term that you’re searching for. So if you were interviewing the right people, which are strategic partners, which are referral partners, which are authorities in your space, then the people that you’re going after are Googling those search terms. And when they land on those pages, you can build presence. You can have kind of a land grab, you can have more real estate, more space, which is yours on those pages. So when people are going out there, they’re searching for those terms. They’re landing on those pages. Then they’re going to see your video in a YouTube Google key moment highlight box, which is occupying more real estate on that first page of search results. So it’s another reason why adding video is a good idea.
Liel: [00:32:40] Yeah, that’s absolutely right. Now, as you were talking about video, what do you think? What are your thoughts about creating transcripts of the episode?
John: [00:32:48] Yeah, I’m I’m totally in favor of that too, with again the caveat. You know, if you’re budget constrained, if you don’t want to spend too much money on this, you know, maybe you hold off on that. I did the same thing where I didn’t do transcripts at first, but now we do. If you add transcripts, you have three thousand to five thousand words of fresh, keyword-rich content that’s going up on your website on a weekly basis. If you do a weekly podcast, there’s no other way to do that. You know, I mean, the rate that lawyers write, you know, no one, no lawyer is producing that amount of written content unless they have no clients on their website, right? So but by talking it out, it’s it’s a lot more efficient in terms of the number of hours put in and the output of words. And when I say you should add transcripts, honestly, I’ve been doing a podcast for 12 years. I don’t think I’ve ever had anyone come up to me and say, Thank you so much for publishing your transcripts. I read them all the time. I don’t know who reads them. I do them for SEO purposes because it’s keyword-rich, dense content. I don’t worry about it being flawless. I don’t worry about, you know, going through with a fine-tooth comb and editing it and all that kind of stuff. That’s not a good use of my time, but I do recommend doing it for SEO purposes.
Liel: [00:34:07] Last section of questions before we move into our takeaways where we always end these conversations. What about the technical stuff, right? Because, OK, there is agencies like yours that help you. Once you have a recorded, a show recorded interview to do all of the editing, getting it put together, uploaded and such. But what are your recommendations in order to get the right equipment so you can sound good, but also not overcomplicate things, because that can also be very intimidating and complex. Like what equipment, right? Because you see all of these famous podcasters sitting in studios with soundproof rooms and a lot of fancy stuff around them and you’re thinking like, you know, you know, you need a sound engineer for that? Yeah, what’s you know?
John: [00:34:54] Don’t worry about that. That’s like comparing yourself to the Today Show or CNN production quality or something like that. You know, you don’t have to worry about that. You need a basic USB microphone. I’m speaking into ATR-20100 from Audio-Technica. You can buy it for, I think, maybe 60 to 70 bucks on Amazon, and it’ll be on your doorstep in a day. And that’s very simple. You know, you can record it right in your home. I don’t. It’s way too complicated to go down to a studio. You see, people do that. Sometimes they start a podcast, they start recording it in some studio. This is more before COVID now because of COVID that that happens last. But before COVID, people are doing that. And then they quit six months later because it takes 20 minutes to drive across town or an hour to drive down to the studio. And it was such a pain in the butt, you know? And again, it’s the number of hours that you put in, and it’s the output that you get out and it produces a bad ratio. Too many hours put in too little output and you’re going to get discouraged. You’re not going to want to do it. So buy yourself a USB microphone, plug it into your computer, set it up so it’s easy to do. You know, one mistake that people make is they. It’s they take it apart and they put it away. And then each time they will need to do an interview, they have to put it back together and set everything back up and check the audio levels and stuff like that.
John: [00:36:11] I have mine and I just have this nice boom arm here, and I just put it over to the side if I want to put it out of the way and I’m using it all the time for meetings. And so it’s very easy to do an interview. I hop on a zoom and boom, we’re ready to go, so reducing that friction will make it easier to do. But don’t worry too much about lighting or audio and stuff like that. I will say don’t record in a kitchen, don’t record it in an echoey place, and put the microphone in front of your mouth. It’s super funny because just this morning I was on a call with someone who had who is like he was trying out this new microphone as a group call. He’s like, “I’m trying to have this new microphone, guys.” And the funny thing was, it was like, over here, it’s like they get like a three hundred dollar microphone. They’re like, you know, another microphone. And yeah, it doesn’t work, you know, and it’s like, it’s like, put the microphone in front of your mouth. If you look at like Howard Stern, right? If you like Howard Stern, the microphone is right in front of its mouth. And so that that small tip just putting the microphone right in front of your mouth is going to have the biggest impact.
Liel: [00:37:18] Yeah, there’s such a such a good point, especially because most of the people by car radio microphones and so yeah, obviously if you if you are one or two feet away from it, you’re you’re not going to be heard. So John, thank you so much. I mean, this was a very, very rich conversation. We went from talking about the value of relationships and how is this a better place to actually find your next clients, find the right quality of leads into how actually having a podcast can help you build build those relationships. So for our listeners today who do not have a podcast and are struggling with their regeneration strategy right now, or they’re finding it more challenging, what are three takeaways that they can implement pretty much now and start turning things around?
John: [00:38:08] Yeah. Well, I’d say start simple. Don’t get too complicated about it. Don’t worry about, you know, going down to a studio or setting up some crazy sound dampening in your office or anything like that. Get yourself a simple microphone and then take stock of how you want to grow your network and who are the most important relationships to you right now. Key clients, key referral partners, key strategic partners. Look at that and then and then go and just have a conversation. Have fun with it. Don’t worry about trying things out. Don’t worry about it being flawless. Don’t worry about everything having to be perfect beforehand. And then also, don’t put it all on your shoulders. There are resources out there. I’d be happy to be a resource for you. There are other companies as well, especially if you’re an attorney listening to this. You’ve got a high case value or high client value that’s not the highest and best use of your time. It’s going to drain your energy and you’re less likely to do it for the long term. What I can tell you is that you reap the benefits when you do this for the long term, when you do it for a year or two years, three years. The reason I keep doing it, even though I have four young kids now and I’m super busy, is because I know that it would take more time. If I didn’t have a podcast, it would be harder to connect with high-caliber people, be harder to get high-quality referrals from people I want to meet. And so it saves me time by having a podcast and it will save you time as well if you do it right. So that’s just a couple of tips there. Hopefully, that helps.
Liel: [00:39:45] Yes. Absolutely. Well, John, thank you very much again for joining us. There is so much to talk about podcast. We hopefully can have you sometime soon. Join back again and we can explore things like how to create the list of people that you want to invite into your podcast, right? And take some tips from you there. But until then, thank you so much. And for those of you who are interested, we were going to have a lot of links for you on the episode notes from the microphone that John is recommending here to rise 25. Where you can potentially find a partner that can help you launch your next podcast. John, thank you again.
John: [00:40:18] Great. Thanks so much.
Liel: [00:40:23] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your coworkers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at: ask@incamerapodcast.com We’ll see you next week.
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