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S2 E13: No Sleep Till Retainer


ICP Logo

S2 E13: No Sleep Till Retainer





Creating a compelling and converting mass tort marketing strategy is only part of the equation. The journey that starts when a lead converts until it gets signed is long and complex, one that requires thorough planning and discipline.

Mark Olson and Alan Frankel from Adwire Media joined us for a conversation about mass torts marketing and the importance of having an elaborate funnel to guide your acquired leads to conversion and maximize your investment.

Together we explored the impact that Covid-19 has had on mass torts marketing, talked about the benefits of opting for a retainer strategy, and explained why empathy continues to be the not-so-secret sauce to any marketing, intake, or sales strategy. This conversation is for those who want an honest overview of running mass tort campaigns.

You can connect with us by visiting our website: incamerapodcast.com

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

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Liel: [00:00:00] Jill Konrath said sales is an outcome, not a goal. It’s a function of doing numerous things right. Starting from the moment you target a potential prospect until you finalize the deal. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media, and this is InCamera podcast where we explore the complex journey of converting Masss Tort leads into clients.

Liel: [00:00:52] Welcome to InCamera podcast Private legal marketing conversations, Grace. Welcome back. It’s great being here with you for another conversation, a legal marketing. So what is it going to be about this time, Grace?

Grace: [00:01:04] Some of my favorite topics, Mass Torts marketing.

Liel: [00:01:08] I’m also super excited about these, particularly because we’ve been kind of like on and off of my topic for the past few weeks. Right. And so we’ve been both very excited to finally get back to this conversation. So, Grace, in addition to both yours and my insights, we have two very knowledgeable and experienced legal marketing professionals joining us for these conversations. Grace, would you do the honors of introducing our guests for today’s episode.

Grace: [00:01:36] So, guys, I have a real treat for you today for today’s conversation. We’re delighted to welcome Mark Olson, president, and Alan Frankel, sales V.P. at Ad Wire media. Ad Wire media is an Internet marketing and lead generation company focused on growing your law firm and meeting your marketing goals with over 20 years of combined experience in the lead generation and Internet marketing space. Ad Wire media is dedicated to delivering highly qualified customers to law firms using proven marketing techniques that get results. Gentlemen, welcome to In Camera podcast.

Mark: [00:02:09] Thank you so much.

Liel: [00:02:11] Welcome, welcome. Thank you so much for being here today. And so we always get started with one very basic but somewhat complex question, right, in these. What law firms are doing wrong. Whenever you get a new client that’s coming to you and saying, hey, I’ve tried doing Mass Torts marketing and it hasn’t worked. What are the most common mistakes that you see or when you’re actually analyzing competitors in the market? What are the most frequent mistakes that you identify that others are making and that you’re using to leverage the strategy for your clients?

Alan: [00:02:44] Great question. Well, I’m going to give you the short answer and I’ll let Mark give you the long answer. The short answer is they’re not using us. That’s the biggest mistake they’re making. But seriously, when we’re talking about mass torts, in my opinion, the biggest mistake they’re making is they’re working hard and not smart.

Alan: [00:03:06] We offer retainers, retainers of the shortcut. The easiest way in the world to get involved in Mass Torts without going through all of the work of taking the lead and vetting it and everything else that’s involved in that. So the short answer is retainers, in my opinion, is the best way to go about getting new clients.

Liel: [00:03:29] Basically what you’re saying, Alan, is that you’re managing the entire funnel, right? You are generating the lead and driving it all the way down to conversion retention and then sending it finally, when it’s an actual solid case to your client, is that it?

Alan: [00:03:48] Well, we can’t guarantee it’s a solid case. What we can guarantee is that it’s a solid retainer, whether it’s a case or not. We’ll find out later on down the road. But it’s basically a turnkey way to work with leads.

Liel: [00:04:01] Understood. OK. Excellent. Mark, what’s your take on this one?

Mark: [00:04:05] So of course, obviously I agree with Alan, but it’s interesting because, you know, you’ll have law firms that reach out and they’re like, I really want to get into mass torts. You know, I’ve tried this. I tried that. And you do some of the basics, you know, that you may think of doing when you’re a claimant. Right. So what would you do? You’d probably go to their Web site. Right. You’d probably want to learn a little bit about, you know, who the firm is. But more importantly, you’d want to learn a lot about the tort. So it’s interesting because sometimes you go to these web, you know, the client’s Web site, the attorney Web site, and you’ll find out, you know, they really want to get interested in round up, for example. You go to their site. There’s no interest. There’s no information on round up. Of course, they’re promoting their law firm like crazy, you know, that they’ve been in, you know, 20 years. And that’s been doing this and doing that. But from a claimant standpoint, you know, you want to go to the site. You want to be able to learn more about Roundup. You want to learn how it’s been affecting people. You want to learn how long the litigation is been going on. You want to learn everything about, you know, the litigation, and you come to find out that you go to their site and there’s basically no information. So from a claimant standpoint, of course, you know, that’s more or less a turnoff. You know, you really want to be able to get more information for yourself. Of course, you want to learn about the firm, but more importantly, you want to learn about your case. Right?

Liel: [00:05:19] Yeah, absolutely. Grace and I would like to also curious, from your experience as a V.P. of marketing for a law firm that does marketing for Mass Torts what’s your take on this one. But it almost sounds like everything when it comes down to Mass Torts, it starts with high end or high level general question. Right. People are trying to generate awareness. And so what you’re saying, Mark, if I understood correctly, is that those answers are not always present in the sights of people who want to capture these leads, right?

Mark: [00:05:53] Correct yeah.

Liel: [00:05:54] And so, Grace, I would like to know from your end, what are you guys doing in order to be there when these questions are being asked?

Grace: [00:06:02] So exactly to Mark’s point. That’s kind of what you have to do, right? You need to have the content and have the information available to the person that you’re trying to reach, whatever that means. So if you’re going for mass torts, you need to have a mass tort page and you need to actually offer that as a practice area that you’re doing. Otherwise, what’s the point? You’re sending them back to a general home page, which if anybody is in marketing, anybody knows anything about marketing, knows that that’s the last thing you want to do because sending them to the home page means absolutely nothing. You’re going to have increased bounce rates, meaning people are not going to see what they’re looking for, meaning roundup or whatever tort that they’re going after. They’re not going to find the information. So what are they going to do? They’re going to leave and go look for somebody now that they know about the tort that you just paid for, for them to get to your Web site. They’re going to go look for somebody that actually has that information on their Web site about that lawsuit. So you just paid for a lead that you’re not going to get.

Liel: [00:06:58] Ok, Grace. So you’re already entering hearing into this strategy and you’re seeing paid. Right. So I already see that your mind is going to Pay Per Click I want to get Mark’s and Alan’s perspectiv on this one, which platform, SEO or Pay Per Click? 

Mark: [00:06:58] So, that’s a great question. I think it also depends on your timeline and a lot of other aspects. Right. So, for example, you know, we have a lot of attorneys that come to us and are like, you know, listen, I really wanna start generating leads right away. I want to get to this mat’s mass tort space. You know, I want to you know. So, of course, if you’re looking for more of a short term goal, SEO is not going to be the way to go. Not to say you shouldn’t do SEO. I think over time you should always do SEO. But as you know, SEO takes time. There’s a lot of upfront, you know, sort of development need to do that, both the site and many other aspects. But, you know, as you know, by the time you build the content, all those things, you might not see any real results from SEO. It could be six months down the line. It could be, you know, nine months down the line. Of course, if you’re looking for immediate results, you know, you want to go for one or more paid options. And like I said, you should always have some sort of mix.

Liel: [00:08:05] Yeah. And, just to put my three cents aside, digital marketing professional. I would agree with you. I think that the best way to jump in to a Mass Torts and to do some also high level understanding as to what is the potential that you have as a whole to be able to penetrate and capture some of these markets is by listing out with pay per click. And so definitely I think there is a lot of factors here. As you were saying, Mark, that will play a bigger role in determining is this something that’s going to last long enough for it to be an SEO worthy strategy, or is it something that we just need to jump very, very intensely into right now with Pay Per Click and maybe some other traditional marketing strategies? What’s your take on that, Alan?

Alan: [00:08:54] Well, you know, it’s interesting, while you were saying this, it reminded me of the difference between an automatic transmission and the manual transmission in the car. Some people enjoy going through the search engine optimization. Some people enjoy the pay per click. I’m spoiled rotten. Once I found out about retainers, I go right to the retainer because trust me, as a vice president, as a sales V.P., I want to get the best results in the shortest period of time for my clients. My client is the attorney. So as far as I’m concerned, that other stuff getting the leads and then vetting them and doing it all it’s a waste of time when all you have to do is make a phone call to me. And Mark is being very humble. We have a phenomenal Web site called Mass Torts  USA dot com, which you can go to. And it gives you everything you need to know basically about each individual mass tort except for the price of getting a retainer. So, again, I see it as an automatic transmission with a retainer. If you are one of those old school firms that you like doing everything yourself, you want to run a promotion of some kind, whether it’s a TV commercial or TV ad or radio or just strictly digital, you can do the long way. And that’s going out, getting the leads, whether it’s Pay Per Click or any other kind of social media. But I find that when somebody tries retainers, they’re spoiled for life. So that’s my answer to your question.

Liel: [00:10:29] Excellent. Thank you very much. Great. So let’s now move on. What’s next?

Grace: [00:10:33] So I think some of the most important thing to think about. Because for us, you know you know, I work for Gacovino and Lake as well. So when I look at the costs of things right, there are like you’re saying, you can buy a retainer. You can look at the cost per lead. You can look at, you know, the cost for SEO, the cost for content. Right. There’s so many variables and factors. So how do we make the most out of our budget?

Grace: [00:10:59] Like, how do we figure out what the best mix is? Mark, as an example to your point.

Mark: [00:11:06] Yeah, well, I think. You know, I think once some of the most important things, obviously, and I know, you know, to kind of just step back for a moment, I know we talked about the funnel. So I think one way to make the most out of your budget, of course, is to make sure you have the full funnel ready for any kind of marketing that you plan on doing. So, for example, you know, we’re talking about PPC, we’re talking about paid advertising.

Mark: [00:11:29] But I can’t tell you how many times I have a firm that, you know, they don’t have the proper intake place. They don’t have 24 hour availability for calls. They don’t have people working the leads. The second that they come in. So when you talk about making the most of your budget, you know, you don’t want to spend all this money on paid advertising only to kind of, you know, let it fall to the wayside because you don’t have the full funnel in place.

Liel: [00:11:54] Let’s park there for a moment. Mark and elaborate a little bit more as to what is the full funnel, like that obviously, for many of us will assume what it is. But why don’t you illustrate a little bit more, kind of like step by step breakdown? What are the factors that need to be taken into consideration? You mentioned there are a few things, intake processing and such and so forth. But let’s spend a little bit of time talking about this, because I think it’s massive and potentially it’s going to be the make it or break it of many strategies.

Mark: [00:12:25] Well, I think and let’s talk in the most basic of terms, because to Grace’s point. I mean, we can you know, it can become so complicated and so convoluted. But let’s talk about it in the basic of terms. So, of course, you know, you typically think of you have your landing page. You know, of course, the landing page should have multiple options for the user to contact you. Right. You should take advantage of the call option. Take advantage of the form option. Of course, your landing page all to be very optimized, you know, based on the type of traffic you’re sending to it. So, of course, if you’re using paid traffic, you know, you can’t just throw up a landing page and pray that it’s going to be optimized and work to its best ability. Right. You know, it has to have the proper content on there. It has to load very quickly. Things like that. So let’s say it all that’s in place. And now you’re generating the lead. You’re generating the call. Right. You know, once that claimant either calls or fills out that form, you also need to have the proper system in place to handle those calls and forms. Right. So, for example, you know, we’ve dealt with some attorneys that, you know, they basically just have like their leads emailed or, you know, they were just like, oh, just have them call me kind of thing. And it’s like it just doesn’t work that way. I mean, you should have a lead management system. You should have a CRM and it should be all automated. So, you know, once a you know, once a claim comes in, you know, you should have it in place where they’re immediately called. You know, if they agree to allow for texting, they should they should get a text. You know, they should also, receive an email. So you cover all your bases. And also, you know, time is of essence. Right. So, for example, when that lead comes in, as you know, for every minute, every five minutes, every 10 minutes, every hour that passes by, the chances of converting that lead is slipping and slipping and slipping, you know. So that’s the other thing, too. It’s it’s all a matter of time. So you’re generating the lead. The lead needs to go into a CRM. The CRM needs to automate many of the items that it will do such that such as I mentioned. And then, of course, you have the full intake. Right. You need to have an intake center that if they do call or you do get them on the phone, they’re ready with with the retainer agreement. They’re ready for the full intake questions. They’re ready to do the whole process right then and there. So that you can get them to sign the retainer. And you’re ready to go rather than, like I’ve heard so many times, we’ve dealt with attorneys where they’re like, well, I tried to call him a couple of times and there was no answer. It doesn’t work that way. You know, if if you’re if you’re using our CRM and you’re properly using a proper intake, they may have to call that claimant as many as 20 or 30 times, especially in mass torts. You’re talking about people that are injured. You’re talking about people that could be in the hospital. You’re talking about, you know, these people are going through rough times, you know, so they might not be totally available. The second you call them, you know, they could have just fill out a form and that and maybe they’re like, oh, let me just take a break. I took a big step. I submitted that form. They might not immediately be answering the phone call, you know. And these are also people that could also be on hard times. You know, maybe their medical bills are piling up, you know, and they’re not really, you know, jumping on the phone or answering every phone call. So it’s all a matter about having the proper funnel calling these people. It could be, like I said, as many as 20 or 30 times, making sure you’re texting them, you’re e-mailing them and making sure it’s all tracked and your CRM so that once you do get them on the phone, now you have the intake that’s going to fully handle the process, have your intake questions ready. All the questions should be also answered in the CRM and now we have the full funnel ready to go.

Liel: [00:15:55] Excellent. I love a lot of what you’ve said there. I think Grace also I was just looking on her face and I know automation here in these podcast has been a very, very hot topic and something that Grace always advocates for. And so I’m sure we’re gonna be hearing a lot more about that in our next episode, right, Grace, where we’re gonna be really digging deep into what does it mean to have an automated CRM and how to really make sure that you are persistent enough to actually capture back the lead’s attention. So I want to jump back right into Alan, because I think this actually summarizes basically everything that you get to skip when you actually go into retainer mode.

Liel: [00:16:38] Am I right?

Alan: [00:16:39] You hit the nail on the head? I felt that what Mark was basically doing was pushing people into into retainers by explaining the intricacies and the the difficulty of getting people to sign up, because, as Mark said, if you think you’re going to get a lead and then you’re going to call the lead and they’re going to sign up, you’re dreaming.

Alan: [00:17:01] And a lot of times attorneys think that they’re going to save money by doing it themselves. And they figure, you know what? Why should I pay thousands of dollars when I could pay hundreds of dollars for a lead, whereas I’m paying thousands for a retainer? Well, the reason is because it takes dozens of leads to get a retainer. When somebody is doing it, that doesn’t do it all the time. And even if you do leads all the time and have all of the people in place to do a perfect funnel, it’s very difficult to reach people because a lot of people don’t want to pick up the phone unless they know who’s calling. They’re afraid it’s a bill collector. You’d be surprised how many people feel that way, specially now in the United States. People are terrified to pick up the phone. Rarely is it good news when you pick up the phone if you don’t recognize the phone number. So if you take everything into consideration, who’s calling me? Should I answer the phone? What time is it? I’m not going to call this time. You have to make I said dozens, sometimes more. You have to take leads dozens, sometimes more to get one retainer. Whereas with a retainer, we’re the best at what we do. We know we have to call 20, 30 times to get somebody on the phone. And we don’t mind doing that. And again, when Mark said where there are attorneys that will say, you know, I called the guy a half a dozen times, he just never picks up. That’s not a good lead. Guess what, a half a dozen times is nothing. You’re scratching the surface. And I see that Grace is shaking your head. Yes. Because it just so happens that that’s how I got started in the industry in intake. And I know how difficult that is and how often you have to call. You have to call at least three times a day. You have to call breakfast. Lunch, dinner. And you have to call sometimes seven days a week, and you can’t repeat the same time you’re going to call because you’ll get the same results the same time you call. So if you’re calling the guy every day or the woman every day at noon, chances are if they don’t answer the first day, they’re never going to answer at noon any day because they probably have lunch at noon or if you call at five o’clock or at nine o’clock, you know, so it’s the times that you reach the person. That’s why it’s a numbers game, you got a call, call, call, call, call. Finally, I got you. Whereas if you do a retainer, you don’t have to worry about any of that. The retainer, you just sit and you wait to get the retainer in your email. That’s it. So let’s say you want 20 retainers in. I don’t know anything. Let’s say. I don’t know, it’s skipping my hand a roundup. You want 20 round up retainers. It may take you a thousand leads to a 20 roundup retainers. Thousand leads takes a long time to get on the phone to find out if they’re good. If they really did use Roundup and ask all the important questions. Whereas if you buy a retainer, the answer is yes. And with us with Ad Wire media, if you get a retainer from us, it has to follow your filters or else you get an exchange credit or even a refund if you want one.

Alan: [00:20:20] I mean, the beauty of what we do with retainers is the client gets exactly what he’s paying for and knows what it is upfront. And I believe that the answer is retainers because I don’t want to do extra work if I’m an attorney. I want to practice law. I don’t want to be in telemarketing. And that’s basically what the lead business is. It comes down to you and it you’re a telemarketer now. And I think that that’s a waste of time for the attorney. Get a retainer. It’s so much easier.

Liel: [00:20:52] All right. Yeah. That’s some very good points that you made there. And actually, very interesting to hear that your background was or starting up your career was in intake. So that’s actually very cool. As a matter of fact, I’d like to share here a little piece of trivia. Grace, did you know that I also did intake when I was 18 years? Yes. I actually used to do intake primarily for workers compensation in Spanish at the early age of 18 years old. So more on that another day. But now I would like just to pick up a little bit more your brain on that whole conversation of the conversion part of thing. Right. Like, OK. So you’ve spent 20, 30 times trying to reach one lead. You’ve finally got a hold of them. Now, what happens on that phone call? Like how efficient you need to be on that phone call to really get them to, you know, for you to save yourself another 20 or 30 calls in the future to talk to that person again. Right. So how do you make the most out of that call? Can you share with us a little bit of insights on that?

Alan: [00:21:51] The way you do it is, number one, you have to be compassionate. Because if you’re not going to be compassionate, there’s no way you’re connecting to the person on the other end of the phone. You have to imagine this is your mother, your brother, your sister, a family member that went through a trauma. Remember, we’re not talking to these people because they want something. We’re talking to these people because unfortunately, they went through a terrible episode in their life. Something bad happened to them. Dramatically bad, medically bad. They could have died or maybe somebody did die from it. So you have to talk to them with empathy. You have to seriously feel for them, because if you’re missing that empathy, you’re in the wrong business. You certainly shouldn’t be an intake. And then you have to be patient because these people are in the middle of their day. This isn’t you know, you’re not a stockbroker calling somebody up for investment. You’re talking to a human being that could be in the middle of taking medicine. They could be in a hospital. They could be. You have no idea how many variations of what’s going on in their life when you call them. So you have to be patient as well as empathetic. And you have to be focused because if you’re not focused, sometimes they are not focused at all. You’re not necessarily talking to people that are that are Harvard MBAs or, you know, or have a doctorate. You could be talking to people that are totally uneducated. You could barely understand a word they’re saying they’d speak broken English or another language. And you have to be able to get somebody on the phone with them that speaks their language. So it is so complicated. You know, intake sounds like the easiest and the lowest part of the totem pole job. It’s actually one of the most difficult because it’s you know, you’re doing the hard work. You’re the guy that’s baiting the hook and putting it in and keeping the fish on the hook, for lack of a better analogy. And really, you have to be patient. That’s it. You have to be able to not scare them away. So, you know, it’s like approaching a scared, hurt animal. You know, these people are scared and they’re hurt and they human beings, let’s face it, we’re all animals. So it’s fight or flight. A lot of times. So as soon as you start asking questions, they get uptight. They don’t want to answer it. They’re afraid. They’re scared to death many times. So, again, that empathy that patience, all of that, as I commit to it, you have to hold their hand and you really, really have to want to help them. Because if you don’t, the phone works like a phenomenal amplifier. They could pick up on it. If you’re just about the money, they’re gonna hang up on you because they’re about somebody hearing their story. They want somebody to hear them to understand what they went through. They’re not looking for a buck. You know, that’s a very misunderstood part about litigation in this country. Everybody says, oh, Americans are so quick to litigate. No, Americans are quick to want to be heard. They want to know that they are not a victim. And you know what? When they deal with us, they’re not victims. They’re victors. We want them to win. Nothing makes me happier than to get a retainer against a company that’s doing a wrongful thing. A big pharmaceutical company that’s taking advantage of people has death as a side issue. Well, we know a certain percentage of people are going to die and we’re prepared for that. I don’t like the collateral damage attitude towards human beings. You know, I’m saying it’s it’s not the buck. It’s helping people. Medicine’s supposed to help people. Medical devices are supposed to help people. This is not just about profit. I understand there’s profit involved, but I don’t want a doctor that’s in it for the money. So we don’t want an attorney that’s not in it to help me, so I feel that what we do is a very helpful step in between the attorney and the client and helping the client get what’s owed to him, what he deserves because of what they went through unnecessarily.

Liel: [00:26:12] Yeah. Alan, everything that you’re saying with regards to empathy and really understanding the circumstances in which the people that you’re connecting with are resonates really well in this room. This is what we’re all about here. And we’ve advocated on these time and time and time and time and again. And unfortunately, it’s one of those things that many times law firms, whether they’re in the Mass Torts world or not, are not necessarily getting right. And it definitely has an impact in the efficiency of them building trust with these distressed callers who are giving them an opportunity to connect with them. So from that end point, we totally agree with everything what you’re saying here. And we appreciate the passion that you have for empathy and for really hearing and understanding and listening to the people on the other side of the line. Grace. 

Grace: [00:27:08] So I have a note to make about what Alan’s saying. And it’s funny that he said, you know, empathy and all of that because not funny. Ha ha. But funny specific here, all of us in this room, we work with clients. Right. I’m not talking about law firm clients. I’m talking about the law firms themselves as our clients write in different ways, me through persist. You know, you guys through Ad Wire and Liel through his digital marketing company Nanato Media. We all work with law firms as clients. We actually, it’s interesting in this perspective is that we actually pick the clients we want to work with a lot of times. So I know that sounds funny, but I know I see Alan nodding his head, Mark nodding his head and even Liel, because we do pick our clients. We only want to work with people that believe what we believe, which is in helping people. That is all we really care about. I mean, don’t get me wrong, of course. Again, profit. Yes. We want to make money. Yes, we need to make money to have a living. But our ultimate goal in one, the clients that we work with, I actually tell clients a lot of times my system might not work for you or this may not work for you because we believe this and you don’t. So it doesn’t match up with my corporate social responsibility. It doesn’t match up with my beliefs. It doesn’t match up with how I do business. So I cannot do business with you. I’m sorry, you know, but those are things that I’ve heard Alan say. I’ve heard Mark say where we pick and choose our clients because they believe what we believe in helping the client at the end of the day. Am I wrong?

Alan: [00:28:43] Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, you said we pick them. They also pick us.

Grace: [00:28:48] Yes.

Alan: [00:28:49] You know, it’s funny in sales in general and I’ve been in a lot of different aspects of sales. People find who they’re comfortable with, whether it’s the customer or the salesperson you find out who you’re comfortable with and usually you’re comfortable with people that share same ethics that you have. And in the case of of mass torts and personal injury and anything where they are victims, you get to know people you don’t want to deal with people that are strictly out to make money. At least we don’t. There are plenty of firms out there that that’s all they care about is the bottom line, you know? But to me, the bottom line is different than their bottom line. You know what? I try to express it to my children. Success is not necessarily just money. I mean, it’s what you accomplish. And it’s really about helping people. You know, I know it sounds corny, but, you know, when you’re on your deathbed, you’re not going to want to be surrounded by bankers and lawyers and accountants telling you what they’re going to do with your money. You want to be surrounded by people that love you. And I like to get our clients to love us. You know, I really do the same way. They love that the person who’s who’s using the lawyer the same way they love the lawyer, you know, they say, oh, my God, thank you so much. So much. I like when lawyers say that to us, say, you know, thanks, guys. You did a really great job and we have that. I’ve worked at a lot of firms before. I’ve never experienced the feeling of doing a good job as much as working with Mark at Ad Wire. And I’m not just saying that to say it, you know, I’m secure enough with myself to know who I’ve worked with in my life. And Mark Olson is the kind of guy you want to work with, whether it’s a client or is an employee.

Grace: [00:30:35] And it’s true, guys. I used to work with Alan. Alan truly means what he says. And that’s why we’re all on this call.

Alan: [00:30:43] Yeah, I speak the truth. And then I’ll tell you the same way I find Mark very easy going to get along with and, you know, calm and patient and level headed, clients have the same thing. So when you’re dealing with a law firm and a lot of times, there is a conflict. And the question is, how do you handle the conflict? Well, the one thing I mean, I like a lot of things about working at Ad Wire, but the major thing I like is everything is done with a sense of calm. There’s no yelling with clients. There’s no, you know, adversarial positions. We’re on the same team. And that’s going back to what Grace was talking about before, that we are all on the same team. We want the same thing. We’re really interested in helping everybody. And by helping everybody, we help ourselves.

Liel: [00:31:33] Yep, totally agree. We have a saying here in our agency that is our clients wins are our wins. Right. So it’s basically you’re an extension. You become an extension of their team. I agree with you. And I think it’s very important what you’re saying with regards to not being confrontational, but rather know how to deliver your message across in a way that you are actually sharing the value that your opinions or your expertise may have on addressing something that you can identify it’s not working the way it should. So I totally hear you and I really appreciate. Thank you there Grace for kind of like turning things around from a different perspective. Right. And now for a moment there, I have a conversation of, you know, us professionals dealing with attorneys as clients, because that’s another very important angle to keep always in mind. Whenever we’re talking about legal marketing, it has to be right. And so it’s a very complex conversation for it just to be kind of like a small side note in a podcast. But I think it’s very valuable to always kind of give an opportunity for that perspective of the picture to be seen. Grace, I think we’ve talked a lot about the funnel. We talked a lot about the intake. We’ve kind of touched on what are platforms that can be used to generate leads. But Mark, Alan, can you potentially share with us a few more ideas as to where is a good place to generate and find Mass Torts leads? So we’ve talked about digital both Seo and Pay Per Click. Are there any other platforms that you guys are currently using to find and generate leads for your clients?

Alan: [00:33:23] I mean, of course, you know, we always try to use a variety of marketing techniques. You know, we could also include obviously email. It can include social. But we’re always looking for like the most comprehensive mix. So to your point, you know, PPC, SEO, is a great start. We also integrate email, integrate social. And then also to be able to generate those ways in various ways, which is, like we mentioned, click to call both where the claimant can call or the claimant can also fill out a form. Because based on the claimant will determine on how they want to contact you. You know, sometimes they don’t feel comfortable jumping on a phone call and sometimes they just want to send off a form. And you’re more comfortable in that way. So just a combination of, you know, using different channels and different methods.

Liel: [00:34:08] Ok. And as an agency, obviously, you lean towards digital. Is there any particular reason why you decided not to include, for instance, traditional maybe media into your mix. TV, obviously radio and other direct mail, other kinds of channels. Is there a particular reason why you’ve decided to solely focus on digital marketing?

Alan: [00:34:32] I mean, we I just feel that that’s obviously the you know, the current and the future. You know, I think there is a place for TV and radio a lot of times, in my opinion, it’s also that’s a great branding tool. So from a law firm standpoint, I think it’s great. To constantly hear a certain law firm’s name through TV and radio, but from a marketer, you know, usually digital is much better, more beneficial for us.

Liel: [00:34:56] Right. Good.

Grace: [00:34:57] So when you say beneficial, I just wanted to explore that a little bit more because we are always talking about, you know, traditional versus digital. And, you know, for me personally, obviously, we do the whole thing, the whole gamut, because as Gacovino and Lake, it makes sense to do newsletters and all of that. But as an advertising agency or as an agency, it does make more sense to do digital. Can you explore why or just give me a little bit of insight into why it makes more sense as an agency to do digital and not focus necessarily on, you know, the traditional media aspect?

Alan: [00:35:33] Well, you know, I think if I, because, you know, obviously I’ve had agencies where, you know, we would be the agency on record and we would manage certain buys for, you know, certain attorneys or whatever. So I think there’s definitely room for that. Obviously, I mean, you need to include that in your mix if you’re an attorney. And yet, technically, you know, we could have TV ads and we could, you know, sort of, you know, use one of our brands, like we have legal nationwide ICOM. We have mass torts, USA dot com. We could use, you know, those brands to promote those as well. But, in my opinion, I just feel from an agency standpoint that if you’re not the direct attorney. I just feel it’s just a lot better to stick with digital and not spend your marketing dollars because you as you know, too, I mean, TV is very pricey and radio is not so bad, but it’s not the, I don’t think it’s as sort of, you know, sort of, you know, beneficial these days as it was back in the day. But for the most part, I just feel, you know, digital works better for it for us as an agency. I think it works great for attorneys themselves. But for an agency, I think digital is the way that we go.

Mark: [00:36:48] And I also noticed. Sometimes it seems like we get younger people on digital than we do with standard television and radio, which sometimes that’s one of the filters that attorneys want to make sure that the person, you know, that is responding to the advertising, they aren’t over a certain age. And let’s face it, very few people that are over 80 years old prefer the computer to television or the radio. I mean, it’s a fact of life. So we do get a younger clientele responding to digital advertising.

Grace: [00:37:26] Likethe Jewl Tort, right?

Mark: [00:37:27] Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Not only the that, a lot of money. A lot of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, round up, you know, how many 80 year old gardeners are there, you know, professional gardeners are there. So I mean, that’s just one that’s probably more garden people gardening that are older than than Jewl smokers. But you do seem to get a younger skew when you do digital.

Grace: [00:37:53] Makes sense.

Mark: [00:37:54] Yeah.

Liel: [00:37:55] Yeah.

Grace: [00:37:55] I personally, prefer a digital method anyway, obviously, you know, which is why we’re on this conversation, probably because for me, digital is easier to hone in, you know, than it is on radio or TV and really know your metrics. Right. And I’m all about the numbers. Right. Always about your return on investment your conversion rates and all of that. And I know you guys are, too. So I just wanted to, you know, explore that just a tiny bit, because I know a lot of the people listening maybe don’t have the benefit as to why we pick what we pick. You know, and I do, of course, like you said, the attorneys need to do the traditional marketing mix. They should have something in there. If they haven’t done TV, I wouldn’t suggest it. But just like we said, if you already have that as part of the mix, can keep it as part of your mix to stay top of mind and brand awareness. But for action, I’ve always found digital to be a lot of times the key to getting any type of conversion.

Mark: [00:38:50] And if you’re doing TV you had that pencil in hand and be prepared, the second commercial comes on to write down the phone number. It’s not pressing a button. So it’s like, honey, get me a pencil. By the time you get the pencil, it’s gone. And that’s happened to every one of us that something was on the TV and that we’ve got to wait. And it could be forever to wait, you know, but with a computer, with digital, you just click or you just ask the question. So let’s say it’s about Zantac. You just put Zantac in Google and all of a sudden you have, you know, a plethora of law firms that do Zantac. Whereas if you’re going to do Zantac, if you took Zantac and you’re feeling that, you know, I think I should be a part of this of this mass tort. Now you’re sitting in the living room waiting for a Zantac commercial could be forever. So that’s another thing. You know, digital is right there. It’s a click. 

Liel: [00:39:44] Yeah. We all agree on that. So I’d like to take your opinion right now as to, you know, we’re leaving on unprecedented times right now. Right. And it’s in everyone’s mind all the time. You may get distracted for a little while and forget for it for a minute, but then something will very soon hit you back and remind you of the fact that we are in pandemic mode still. Right. And so I’d like to hear from your and what sort of impact you’ve seen this having in the mass torts market in general. Right. And I know it’s a very deep question because maybe some Mass Torts have had no impact or negative impact whatsoever, or maybe some of them have seen a boost. So just let’s keep it kind of like high level. What have you seen?

Mark: [00:40:37] Ok. So one thing that I found really interesting is I saw on the news the other day that an attorney adjusted the way he works when claimants drop off information by having no contact. So basically, the way they handle now is they have I guess they you know, you call them ahead of time. So if someone comes outside, you know, with full mask and gloves, you don’t need to leave your car and you provide all your drop off materials without entering the office. I found that really interesting. I was like, well, that’s interesting, you know, way to move forward with business. Of course, you know, everybody’s concerned with the social distancing and the health concerns. So you have, you know, all of the you know, the businesses and attorneys adjusting in that manner. And then you also have the claimants adjusting in that manner as well. You know, they’re thinking, how am I going to, you know, engage with an attorney, you know, and stay safe, you know? So I found that really interesting.

Mark: [00:41:37] People are starting to, you know, adjust to the pandemic and know that it’s not going away anytime soon and trying to, you know, make sure everybody continues to stay safe.

Liel: [00:41:47] Yeah. Alan, what’s your what’s your take? What you’ve seen from a sales standpoint, what’s the interest levels, not attorneys have had?

Alan: [00:41:54] Well, what I’m finding is very interesting or what I’m finding interesting is the fact that how these law firms react to a crisis. Are they there for me? Or for anybody calling for that matter? So even though I’m calling primarily I call the law firm to try to sell them something, they’re also getting phone calls from people that want to use them as their attorney or to find out about their case and if they’re not responsible enough to answer the calls or to have some system in place. For me as a salesman, I could just imagine how frustrating it is for somebody that has, you know, that’s using them as a lawyer. So I think that the way people act under pressure is a great way to judge somebody. You know, everybody is charming and wonderful. And they could do anything for you when everything’s optimized. But when things are really, you know, stressed, when the pressure is on, that’s when you find out the character of the person or the firm. So I find that the firms that are seamless, that it’s like nothing happened. Those are the people I want to do business with, whether it’s defending me in court or buying, you know, retainers or getting leads from me and those people that just don’t respond. I mean, I’ve literally had, you know, the times where I’ve called law firms and I’m not talking about individual lawyers necessarily, but I’ve called firms and they don’t answer the phone. I’m shocked because what if somebody has a case and they’re very concerned about it? You know, what if they have something to add to their case and nobody’s answering the phone. So it’s a very good way to weed out the firms you don’t want to deal with. That’s what I’ll say. It’s the Darwinian business model. You know, the strong survive. In this case it’s not the strong, but it’s the prepared. You know, it’s prepared.

Grace: [00:44:03] So we usually at the end, we like to do what we call takeaways. Three main points during the conversation that you feel people can take away and actually act on right now. So, you know, obviously, like what Alan said, I’m sure one of them might be, you know, having to do with the retainers buy retainers instead of leads. But I’ll just give you that one, Alan. And then, you know, Mark and Alan, please give us three takeaways that you can think of that you feel that they can do and actually act on after the podcast.

Mark: [00:44:34] So I think definitely to sort of analyze where you’re at as far as having a, you know, comprehensive funnel, you know, we talked about the funnel many times. So I think from a law firm standpoint, I think it’d be good to, you know, analyze how you’re generating the leads, you know, analyze how you’re handling the calls, you know, look to see, you know, is CRM working as it should. Is it you know, being, you know, really robust in the sense of, you know, sending emails, sending text, having all the automation in place. And, of course, also look at your intake process to make sure, you know, however, you know, you may be able to hone that and, you know, sort of make sure that the full intake to Alan’s point is is done in a quick and empathetic manner.

Alan: [00:45:21] You know, we didn’t bring up one thing, and that’s the takeaway, actually. Because the client that’s dealing with the attorney that’s between them. I’m going to talk about the client and us, the law firm and us. What separates us from everybody else? Because there are a lot of advertising agencies out there. There are a lot of lead generators out there. And there are other firms that get your retainers out there. So why do business with us as opposed to any one of them? What makes us better, different? And I think what makes us the best is our service. Nobody services clients the way we do. We are available all the time. I would say 24/7 because that’s a fact. Although I don’t want to get a phone call at four o’clock in the morning, but I’ve been on the phone. It’s been night already with my clients and I have no problem doing that. I look at it like we’re on the same page. We’re on the same team. You know, it’s almost like a family. I want them to succeed so badly for a number of reasons. But one of them, let’s face it, is I want repeat business. I want referrals. So I’ve found that. And I’ve been in sales my whole life. I found that you can get the same product somewhere else. You may even be able to get a cheaper somewhere else. But you want to enjoy doing business with the people you’re doing business with. That’s part of it. You want to find pleasure. You want to enjoy it. You want to you want to be able to call up whoever you’re doing business with and tell them a joke or tell them something that just happened in your life that has nothing to do with sales. And I have that all the time. I have great relationships with the people I deal with. They will always take my calls no matter what’s going on. Even just to say, Alan, I can’t talk right now or Alan, I’m not buying anything right now. But I just I want to say hello to you. Because I care about my my clients. I care about anybody that’s in my life that I want to have in my life. I care about them. We get back to empathy every time. And the empathy is the most important thing in the world. So as a salesman, I have to say to myself, how would I feel if I got retainers? In case you don’t already know, I like retainers. But how would I feel if I just spent a lot of money with a guy on retainers and then I call them up and he’s not available for me? That is a no. I’m sorry. I don’t care what firm you’re with. I don’t care how successful you are, how important you think you are. The client is the one you’ve got to be responsible for. You got to hold his hands so many times. I don’t care how successful people are. They love to know that they’re important. And everybody that we deal with, whether they buy from us or not is important. The ones who buy are a little bit more important. But seriously, everybody is important. And I want them to know that when they deal with Ad Wire, there’s nothing we won’t do for them. I mean that we go out of our way. We bend backwards. If we don’t have a product that they’re looking for, we’ll give them a referral. We have people ask us, Alan, I need money. Where can I go to to borrow money? Let’s say, you know. We’ll give them a referral or where can I get this? Where can I get that? Whatever they need, whatever we know, we want to help them because we’re on the same team. And I think that’s the most important thing about who you pick to do business with. You want to know that you’re getting somebody that cares about you, that wants you to do well. And even if it’s because of greed, because they know if you do well, you’re going to do business with them again. That’s OK as long as you do well by them. That’s the bottom line. .

Liel: [00:49:02] Yeah. I’m in, great words there. Excellent. Well, gentlemen, thank you so much again for creating time to be part of this conversation. A lot of valuable things here are being shared, and we really hope that you stay safe and that we get to have another follow up conversation on these or any other topic in the near future. So thank you again.

Mark: [00:49:21] Thank you.

Liel: [00:49:27] Grace, another great conversation with Mark and Alan. They’re so much fun or so much knowledgeable. And it’s always delightful to hear them, right? Especially in these times. And I really like what Alan, they had  to add with regards to almost like give your clients the experience they want to have. Right. Adapt. Understand. But always keep that in mind is how would I want to feel. But also take into consideration how the actual client wants to feel. I just took there are a lot of very valuable insights. I loved a lot of what we’ve heard. But let’s now bring up our own takeaways, Grace. So what would you say take away number one should be.

Grace: [00:50:06] So I think that this was super important and it cannot be emphasized enough. You need to have actual information on your Web site about what you’re trying to market. So if you have, you’re going towards Mass Torts which is what this whole call is about, have information on your website about that mass tort, because otherwise people will land on your page. They’ll see that there’s nothing there. So they will bounce right off and go to someone else who does have information that they’re looking for. Right, Liel?

Liel: [00:50:36] Yeah, absolutely Grace. So I think if you’re actually gonna run some sort of Mass Tort campaign under your brand and even if you take the pay per click rout and create landing pages and do a great job at getting in front of people that actually are interested and high intent to convert for these, you still need to take into consideration that there is some chance that the lead will want to go to your Web site and confirm that, that information that they saw on your ad and on your landing page is actually also available on their own law firm Web site. Right. So whether you’re gonna go for a full SEO campaign on the Mass Tort, or not, the information still needs to be available in your Web site. And people need to be able to correlate whatever marketing activity you’re doing about a Mass Tort in your digital presence. So I agree. I think it’s a very, very important move that sometimes law firms kind of like forget. Right, because it’s not their main practice area. They may just decided to run a specific campaign for the Mass Tort. But then when people want to research a little bit further, they may not necessarily find the reassurance that they were looking for when they went to the law firm after visiting the ad, the Web site, the landing page and seeing the information that they were looking for. Right. So, yeah, it’s a very valid point. What is the next take away that you have for us?

Grace: [00:52:05] So it’s perfect, actually. Right after this one that we’re talking about, having information on your Web site about the tort that’s part of a funnel guys. So you need to have a full funnel. All right. You need. What are we talking about? We talk about funnels. We’ve said this over and over again. A funnel is literally from the moment that somebody is even aware of who you are, whatever that means, direct mail, digital, et cetera, et cetera, all the way through to the end retainer packet and follow up and everything that goes into dealing with the client and everything after that. So you need to have a full funnel with automation. Again, I can’t say it enough. I know Liel might be exhausted hearing me say this over and over again. But automation in your funnel is key. And that is, you know, guys, that’s what we sell at persist. It has to do with the full campaign. Mark said it a few times. Alan said it a few times. We’ve said it a million times. I mean. Liel I know you’re dying to say something, so go ahead.

Liel: [00:53:04] I just want us to really commit to this one, Grace. Do you promise that next week, no matter if Google collapses entirely? Right. No matter if we go back to phase eight on this whole pandemic, we will have a conversation about automation for Mass Torts. Can you promise that? 

Grace: [00:53:24] I promise. I know that Liel’s been wanting me guys to do the basically a presentation he saw in person at a PILMMA super summit. So he wants me to go over that because it was very, very specific. And it gives you not just actionable information, but a whole list of actions that you can take right now to use your current database to go after Mass Torts. So that’s what he’s talking about. And yes, I promise next week that is going to be our episode. And that is what we will discuss.

Liel: [00:53:54] Excellent. That’s music to my ears, Grace. So great. Now we have one final take away to go for. And so, Grace, what would you say that would be. 

Grace: [00:54:05] So really? You know, Liel and I had talked about this before because I think especially with the pandemic and everything, this is a super important point. And we haven’t really, you know, we discuss it throughout all of our podcast, but we haven’t really brought it out again as a specific take away empathy. You need to be patient, be focused and be empathetic. With your clients and people that you’re in any working relationship, any relationship, period, if you can be empathetic and actually feel for the people that you’re trying to work with or work for or do something for or with, you will be a lot further along in your life and in your business and in your career.

Grace: [00:54:46] Empathy is the key to everything, right? To me, it’s that golden rule. Do unto others as you’d like done unto you. And that means being empathetic. What are your thoughts?

Liel: [00:54:55] I agree Grace, I cannot agree more. Again, it came as part of the moment where we were talking about intake, but in reality, empathy. It goes every every step in the customer journey. Right. Every single step throughout the client journey. Empathy needs to to be perceived and empathy needs to be shown. And again, like cannot be stressed enough. Thank you for making it a take away because we cannot go over it enough times. How empathy’s important and a key element for the success of your law firms at all levels. Right. Internally as well. It’s not just about the impact that you show to your clients, but also to your in-house team and also the empathy that you show towards other partners outside your organization. Right. All of that and especially in these times and in this climate. I mean, there’s nothing more powerful than showing that understanding and that willingness to want to put yourself in the other person’s shoes and talk from a very personal and human side of you. Right. Like, there is no better way to build trust than by showing empathy.

Grace: [00:56:14] I think a lot of us forget sometimes that our employees are relationships, right. That we’re in relationships, we’re in a working relationship with our employees, and that employees are listening to these intakes all day long. Right. Your intake team is listening to some very horrible things sometimes.

Liel: [00:56:29] Yeah.

Grace: [00:56:30] So you have to be empathetic with your team as well. They’re going through this as well. They’re going through it. And they’re listening to every day. All day. People who are injured hurt in pain. You have to remember that. That they themselves are listening to these people and they’re having to hear these stories. So you need to be empathetic. All across the board, just like Liel said with everybody.

Liel: [00:56:51] Yeah, absolutely, Grace. Absolutely. And wow, that’s a very interesting perspective that you’re taking there and a very important one that we should definitely tackling one conversation. All right, Grace. So until that time comes, we will be meeting again next week for another conversation on automation. As per what you were saying and thank you again and have a great rest of your week.

Grace: [00:57:14] You too. Thanks, Liel.

Liel: [00:57:16] Thanks bye.

Liel: [00:57:20] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers. Leave us a review and send us your questions at: ask@incamerapodcast.Com. We’ll see you next week.

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