Being in a position of growing your team is always great news. But finding the right candidate for your organization, budget and needs can be far more complex than you ever imagine.

Grace explains why creating a job description outlining the responsibilities and daily tasks are essential for creating a job listing and searching for candidates with the right skills and experience.

The conversation explores the value of personality assessments and how you could use online job sites to leverage these powerful tools and find the right candidate for your position and save lots of time along the way. Keeping things timely while having a clear and structured interview process will be fundamental to move candidates through the pipeline fast and while they are engaged and their interest levels are high. After all, you don’t want to be told that they found a job somewhere else.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

Enjoy the show? Please don’t forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!


Liel: [00:00:00] The secret ingredient to your long-term success is the people who are working as part of your team to make things happen. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media, and this is In Camera podcast where we’re only as good as the team who supports us.

Liel: [00:00:46] Welcome to In Camera podcast, Private Legal Marketing Conversations. Grace, welcome back, spring break time. How are you?

Grace: [00:00:53] Good, good. It’s definitely spring break. I’m in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, so you can imagine what it looks like here.

Liel: [00:00:59] Yes, Grace, I’m jealous. I couldn’t be more jealous of the people spending time right now outdoors in the beach in a safe environment. You know what, can’t wait for it? As a matter of fact, like I’ve been dreaming about NTL, which, of course, it’s work. It’s a business trip. But just the idea of being seaside is just blowing my mind. I’ve been spending a lot of time just thinking about it without necessarily getting much preparation for the actual event, because that’s one thing that’s really, you know, we don’t think about it that much. But how is it going to be like, right, being back at these events in front of hundreds, if not thousands of people and going from zero to that, right, in just a matter of a day or hours? So I think it’s going to be very interesting. But I’m excited. I’m looking forward to it.

Grace: [00:01:50] I am, too. I can’t wait to see everybody again in person.

Liel: [00:01:53] I know. Right. And one… That’s I think one of the things that it’s going to be very, very interesting to see how it’s going to turn out, like what elements of all of these remote communications and remote working are going to remain and are going to still be around well after we are fully capable of transitioning back to in person.

Liel: [00:02:18] And kind of like the way we used to run business in the past, which elements were going to retain. And we’re going to say we now know that we’re way more efficient at doing certain things remotely, just jumping on a zoom call, not having to travel through every single meeting for every single gathering to meet with every single client and which things are actually going to stick around. Right. Which conferences are actually going to have still the way to retain the interest from people and say this is worth traveling for me?

Liel: [00:02:50] Because I think if one of the biggest realizations that we’ve all had over this past year is how much time has gone wasted in just moving from one place to another, just for an hour, two hour long meetings, events, I mean, is it actually worth it? And in some cases, the answer is yes. And in some cases the answer is probably not. There is more efficient ways of doing it. So I think this is going to be very interesting to see which ones end up falling in which one of these blocks, don’t you think?

Grace: [00:03:22] Definitely. I mean, I’ve been thinking about that even from the beginning. You know, once all of this is over, what’s going to happen, right? I mean, who’s going to go which way? And there’s a lot of the tech companies at the beginning that just immediately went remote and they immediately declared that they would not go back. Right. Like Twitter as an example. So, yeah, I mean, it’s been in the back of my mind for a while, too, is how is all this going to shake out? 

Liel: [00:03:46] And as you’ve said, I mean, there’s a lot of companies that have decided that they will now give either the option or they’re now splitting to most of time remote and just some of the work done in the office. But I think it’s also going to be very interesting what things actually are the things that get done when people work at the office, because I also think we’re going to be way more strategic at that. I think there is a lot of things that can be more efficiently or you can get better results by actually doing them face to face with people and there are some other things that they’re perfectly fine and work perfectly well with a remote setting.

Liel: [00:04:23] So that organization of different tasks and activities, I think that’s also a very interesting thing. And in reality, I mean, the office work particularly, or even these conferences, what is really the value of them? I think it’s more so the social part of it, the interaction, the sharing of ideas, the open conversations, because, I mean, just going somewhere, sitting down and hearing somebody else speaking out is something that you can very well do in zoom or webinars. But actually, you know, joining conversations, meeting up people, hearing differing ideas, entering into discussions, I think it’s something that has a lot of value when it’s happening in person, although now there’s clubhouse and a few other things that allow you to have this kind of like impromptu networking opportunities. But again, I still think the personal element still has a very, very heavy weight, particularly in our industry. Grace. So, yeah, that’s an interesting conversation and one that probably we’re going to be going back to every single day until we actually meet again in NTL. Grace. We’re going to meet again. We’re actually going to be there. Who knows? We may even record an episode there that’s actually so exciting. I’m so much looking forward to it, but I know you want to share some news and updates that you recently received via email from Google, and I’m all up for it, I want to hear what is Google saying?

Grace: [00:05:55] Yeah. So you know how we’ve you and I have constantly done quite a few year in reviews, I’d say, right. Where it’s saying, OK, this is what’s happened since covid. This is what we think is going to happen going forward. Well, Google kind of did the same thing and they just sent out an email on one of their think with Google emails, subscribe to everything that is potentially related to Google. So I like to kind of read through all that all the time.

Liel: [00:06:22] I like that.

Grace: [00:06:23] Yeah. You know, I mean, I love Google and everything that has to do with Google. So I try to kind of keep up with everything that they send and read as much as I can.

Liel: [00:06:33]  Which is impossible. And it’s a real ongoing challenge, but it’s a good challenge to have.

Grace: [00:06:39] It is. It is. And, you know, I’m a speed reader, so I kind of go through these really, really quickly and I try to absorb as much as I can every day.

Liel: [00:06:47] Grace, that’s such a skill? I mean, speed reading is I’m not a speed reader. I actually need to really, really, really concentrate and sometimes reach twice things for them to somewhat stick. So, yeah, I’m jealous. And Natalie, my co-founder is also speed reader, and that’s such an amazing skill.

Grace: [00:07:06] I have something for you, for anybody and wants to enhance their speed reading skills or actually become a speed reader potentially. I read Marilyn Vos Savant’s book. She is very well known in the speed reading world. Read her book. It’s a small handbook. It’s not very big. She teaches you some skill sets to learn how to speed read with comprehension. Well, it’s Marilyn Vont Savant. 

Liel: [00:07:33] That sounds really interesting. I’ll search for it and if I can find it, I will post it on the episode notes.

Grace: [00:07:39] Fantastic. 

Liel: [00:07:40] And give it a read as well.

Grace: [00:07:41] So Google think at a glance right there when you’re in, they wanted to look at what they call the agility, resilience and pivots that have helped companies navigate extreme uncertainty, including themselves. So they just had a couple of takeaways from a difficult year. And it’s funny how much this is aligned with what you and I have spoken of as a whole for all businesses, for all law firms, and as specific as what’s going on in our lives. Right. The first thing they say is stay true to who you are. Isn’t that what we’re always saying? Have your story and be you.

Liel: [00:08:18] That’s always a good piece of advice.

Grace: [00:08:22] It is. And then they go on to say, build from strong foundations, you know, that’s still with your team and building out your team and making sure that the people that you have in place are the people that you feel like can help the most, help your clients the most, help your business the most. And that’s considered a strong foundation. So, you know, I feel like a lot of the things that they’re giving you, it’s probably four or five of them. And I’m going to go through them pretty quickly because they’re just the things that you and I have spoken about over and over.

Liel: [00:08:52] Yeah.

Grace: [00:08:53] So the next one is empathy. Empathy, always. How many times have you and I spoken about empathy and just putting yourself in someone else’s shoes, especially with COVID. We have to. Right. We have to do that because it’s the only way that we’re going to understand what anyone else is going through in business. And our client’s right.

Liel: [00:09:14] Of course, it’s all about creating a connection and building trust and starting from empathy. It’s a great way of getting there.

Grace: [00:09:25] Exactly. And then, you know, to me, this is kind of like the last two that they talk about the kind of go together and that’s walk the talk and be human. Walk the talk is what they’re talking about. There’s the extraordinary call for racial equity and equality last summer. You know, none of us are going to forget that because this is more important than anything that’s going on. Everyone is important. Everyone needs to be thought of and we all have to be a part of the answer, not the problem, right. So that’s part of what they’re saying. Walk the talk and honestly be human. We’re all people. And so whatever our differences are, we all bleed red. So I feel like these are very basic things, but I really like that they kind of put it together and did it kind of a reflection, you know, end of quarter, first quarter reflection as to what’s happened over the last year, the last year with covid and everything that’s gone on. What do you think?

Liel: [00:10:31] I actually agree, I mean, I think there are all very, very, very kind of like baseline tips for success coming from Google or anybody else, and I think it’s very telling when Google puts up this messaging, because it also gives you hints and cues as to what is it that they are doing in terms of setting up their priorities and how are they going to walk the talk. Right. Because they’re actually saying, OK, well, you have to walk the talk. It’s not just about saying and acting and then not really being there. I think this came up with on one of our episodes. As you’ve said, at the end of last year, it was really Google holding accountable companies to websites for what they’re saying and what they’re doing. They’re committing to taking action on certain things and taking a stance over other things and they are actually doing it right. And we know Google is all about A.I. and algorithms and tracking changes and tracking social sentiment and everything that’s happening surrounding a brand. So they can very well gather this information and start favoring those brands who are actually having an impact and actually extending through to what they say and favor those who are not, right. So it is something to keep in mind.

Liel: [00:11:54] Grace, great article there. And, or newsletter. And I also just want to quickly touch while we were on the Google topic. This week, a report was released from Google saying that over three point one billion ads were actually blocked last year from the Google ads platform. And this is pretty remarkable and a good reminder of, in my opinion, two things. Number one, that Google is really pushing hard towards keeping Google ads and Google as a whole, as a safe environment for both users and advertisers. And number two is that you really need to know what you’re doing and who you’re up against when entering the Google ads world, right. It’s not a fraud-free environment. And you certainly need to be very cautious as to both as an advertiser and as a brand. How is it that you’re exposing yourself when getting into Google ads? I’m not saying don’t do it. You should. And it’s a critical element of your marketing strategy. But of course, this is a good reminder that you certainly need to take precautions, have fraud prevention plans and solutions embedded in your strategy so you can actually take proactive approaches to defend yourself, your ads and your brand against anything that can go wrong.

Liel: [00:13:34] What do you think?

Grace: [00:13:35]  That’s so important? And I want people to really pay attention to what you just said. You know, clickbait, right? And click fraud is out there. And if you don’t know it and you don’t understand it, then ask somebody who does like Liel. I mean, you really need to reach out if you don’t understand what that is and how to protect yourself from it, because it’s so important, particularly with all of the hackathons and all the fraud that is going out there, period. So how you and I have always talked about security and, you know, and trying to protect your brand, it’s all the same part of the same conversation. Your advertising is part of your brand, making sure you’re not paying too much because somebody just all of a sudden did some click fraud. You need to protect yourself from that. So that’s all part and parcel of what we constantly talk about. If you don’t know how to protect yourself and you don’t understand it, make sure you ask either if you already have a vendor that’s doing it, you have somebody in house, ask them, tell them this is a concern of yours. How are they mitigating that risk? And if they can’t answer that for you, you potentially need another vendor or you need to help your in-house person understand how to help your company and your brand protect itself from click fraud or reach out to someone like Liel who can help you figure out what kind of strategy. And that’s when he runs these campaigns. He has that in his, not just the back of his mind, but in the forefront of his mind. How do I protect my clients from click fraud?

Liel: [00:15:03] Well, thanks for the acknowledgment, but it’s about that and at the same time also about monitoring everything that’s happening with your campaigns. Again, we’ve spoke about code tracking, how important it is understanding when you’re being targeted by spam calls, because a lot of these things that you can see that Google is taking proactive approach to actually try to prevent and take corrective action when fraudulent activity is detected. But oftentimes it just doesn’t happen. Right. They don’t necessarily identify it. And so you need to be also tracking so you can report back to them and say, hey, this is happening and be able to advocate your case. Right. And literally, so that you could actually get them to take the corrective action that they should have taken initially.

Liel: [00:15:52] But it’s a good testament that Google is actually taking steps and putting at the forefront of thing of their priorities to keep Google ads as a safe environment. So that was just something that was discussed this week. And I thought we should mention it here. But, Grace, one of the things that you’ve said just now about Google and their kind of like takeaways for the last year and things that they’ve learned was build trust, nurture your team. Right. That was one of the points they brought up. And I want us to have a conversation and one that actually is all based about actionable things, Grace, on how to go about recruitment.

Liel: [00:16:37] Right. Because it doesn’t have to be for a specific position. But I think the idea of having to bring someone new to the team sometimes can just feel like a jigsaw. And you don’t know where to start building from because you either are not too clear as to what the position is going to be for or you want it to cover too many things and then end up having a very ambiguous role. And then goes the search and then the interviews. Then the job offer, so, Grace, do you think you can help us here, figure this out and create some basic guidelines for our listeners to follow if they are in this process?

Grace: [00:17:18] Certainly so. As you know, I always have like a thousand things going at once, and we’re always opening some new company or doing something different.

Liel: [00:17:26] That’s right.

Grace: [00:17:27] So as part of it, I am actually in the middle of hiring a couple more lead fulfillments slash intake people that, you know, we pay pretty well. I think that’s one of those super important things you need to start with, that you need to make sure that you are paying what’s not just equitable, but also a little bit more, because if that’s what you want, you want an in-house person and you need an in-house person. You want that in-house person to stay with you for a long time and to be motivated to increase their skillset. Right. Because you’re going to do some training regardless of what you do because they need to learn your specific systems. So as part of it, you need to pay a decent rate. It depends on where you are. Right. I’m in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, South Florida area. So for us, it’s generally 12 to 15 dollars an hour is a good rate of pay. We pay 15 normally per hour in this kind of job set right where it comes to the intake. And just data entry is what I like to call it. So when I put out a request for like a job and I put out a job description, I don’t call it intake. Why not? I don’t call it intake because what I want this person to do is to have data entry and customer service components. So that’s what I call the job, because the assessments or the skills that I’m looking for are can you pay attention to data and can the data be entered correctly? Can you look across different types of data and make sure it’s correct? And then can you speak to these people in a way that is empathetic, shows that you care, but is customer service oriented in the sense that you get them qualified, you take care of what you have to take care of and you get them signed up. So that’s how I look at an intake person to me, I believe that person is a qualification person, is a customer service and data entry person.

Liel: [00:19:32] So that’s what’s the name of the role? Data entry agent? 

Grace: [00:19:37] I actually put and they allow you to do this on the system that I use. I use indeed. Which is like the HotWired excuse me, like HotJobs and Monster Job, Zip recruiter. They’re all this is very similar. I used inneed because I like the assessments that indeed has so and they also allow you to choose job descriptions and it’ll give you an idea of what that job description entails. And what I put on there was customer service data and lines. Right. So that’s the job description that popped up. I modified it slightly to basically say what I want them to do in terms of customer service and exactly what I want them to do in terms of data entry. And all that is, is you’re going to be entering information based on what a customer tells you on the phone into a database. It’s as simple as that.

Grace: [00:20:26] But I need you to have customer service skills and attention to detail skills. So how do you even achieve that? You know, I know that we’ve spoken before about like a Crisp’s assessments and, you know, they have a couple of these other assessments that help you determine the roll type and, you know, those types of things. Those are great if you have them in place. But if you don’t and you need some kind of a recruiting tool, I rely on a company like indeed because they have those pre-built into their system and they actually, after covid increased the tools that they have available for you by adding a zoom meeting type component so that you can do interviews online.

Grace: [00:21:11] So in looking for this person, I posted a job description of customer service data entry and I included two assessments the assessments are free as part of indeed. And they give these assessments to the person that’s applying my two assessments. One was about data entry. Can you pay attention to detail? And the second one was customer service, and I’ll give you a quick example, the data entry one showed you two tables and they showed you on the left. They had a couple of numbers on the right. They had another couple of numbers and they said comparing these two tables, what is different? And then they’ll give you kind of similar questions throughout the assessment. And once you pass or don’t pass, they have levels between completed all the way up to expert or highly proficient. So it gives you as the hiring person, the opportunity to look through assessments, look through the resume, if they have a cover letter, you can choose basically exact candidate that you want based on your criteria, just like anybody would be doing when they’re trying to qualify a client for a case.

Liel: [00:22:27] Right. So you set up your qualifiers basically, and you can already filter out the candidates that meet certain criteria. And out of those who meet it, you can then look into other characteristics on their applications or their test results and then invite for an interview those who actually seem to be the best qualified. Right? 

Grace: [00:22:50] Exactly. Exactly. So that’s how the whole process works. And like I said, I use indeed I don’t even sponsor the jobs because I get enough applicants. And we all know right now everyone kind of needs a job. Have you ever used Indeed?

Liel: [00:23:03] So we use LinkedIn whenever we are doing recruitment, but I don’t think, quite frankly, that they have these assessments that you are talking about. And that actually sounds great. Other than that, everything else in terms of looking at the certain experience level of their resumes, like it’s very good at allowing you to filter out and prequalify candidates based on their skill sets, experience, location, and so forth and so on. It’s fantastic. It allows you also to host interviews from the platform itself, just like you’ve mentioned, which is very convenient. But this part of the assessments is one thing that I haven’t really checked on, and it’s actually really good, right? It’s very convenient. The only thing that I would say we do slightly different than that is we break down our interview process into different sections and usually, we are looking a little bit more personality based. Right. And then and then focus on the skills of the personality part has been accomplished. And the one way that we conduct interviews that I really took with me from having worked in the hotel world and really having done hundreds of interviews was when interviewing a candidate, asking questions that are experience based. So tell me about a time that right. As opposed us. What is this? What is that that are more theoretical, but actually really ask them to speak out of circumstances, situations where they’ve been that they’ve had to implement or do things in such a way. And that really gives you more insights as to how people actually respond, behave on the work, on the job. And so I would just want to point out that that it’s way more valuable than asking questions that are more technical and theoretical because anyone can really learn that and nailed the interview perfectly. And then when you bring them on board from the start and you decide, you’ll realize that they’re not necessarily the right fit, is just that’s one of the things that you can actually get to and kind of get an idea of through personality tests and emotional intelligence tests. And those are fantastic. We’re just, I would say, a little bit more manual in that. And the reason why we can also afford to do that is because we also don’t recruit that often leave. Right. So whenever we’re on the process of recruitment, we can actually put ourselves through that process. But I one hundred percent understand the efficiency. And why would you want to leverage systems like the ones you are where you have to do this every single month.

Grace: [00:25:41] Well, not only that but so to your point, you’re 100 percent right. You need some personality components because I could be the best data entry person in the world. But if I can’t speak to you or you can’t speak to somebody, we’re going to have problems because you have to do that. You have to speak to somebody. So just because you’re good at that entry doesn’t mean you’re going to be good at communication. That’s why I added the secondary assessment, and that was the customer service assessment. Now, the customer service assessment, it was really funny because it specifically asked, it didn’t care what business line you were in. It’s just asking customer service-oriented questions. One of the questions in the template that they show you, it wasn’t going to be the exact question, but one of the questions they asked you was, let’s pretend to work for an airline and a customer comes up to you at your gate, shows you their boarding pass and says, I don’t know where my where my gate is, can you please help me? And then it gave you potential answers to those questions. How would you respond as the employee of this airline? And potential answers were, you know, you can look on the board, you know, of course we know in hospitality you don’t say that. 

Liel: [00:26:52] The worst one.

Grace: [00:26:53]  Exactly. So, you know, it went through those kinds of different components to help me understand what the personality would be like in terms of the customer service skill set that I am looking for. So, yes, you’re one hundred percent, right? Personality is super important. The only way I can get to that point is by adding my criteria and the assessments that are helping me and indeed to kind of determine the personality part of it for customer service that I need. But I also need a data entry so a person could come up as highly proficient in data entry. And all they did was complete the assessment, meaning they didn’t even rank at all on the customer service side. I’m not taking that person, but I can immediately disqualify them.

Liel: [00:27:35] Yeah, I hear Your Grace listen. And quite frankly, if you’re getting because that’s another thing, right? I mean, not every market, you are in the position where you can actually get enough applicants to find you to have a pool where you can say, well, I’m just going to focus on the on the 10 percent that actually got, you know, all of these assessments above 90 percent. Right. And then have this much of experience, you need to also take into consideration into consideration how is your local job market and where can you actually find that talent easily and start setting your benchmark from there? Because that’s another thing we would all want to always be able to hire the best and the most talented. And but sometimes it’s just not there, is just not there. So you need to balance that out and also understand, you know, when you need and I remember I had this a lot of hotels when it was certain certain times like you’ve been recruiting for a position for two months and you just cannot find the right fit. And sometimes you need to make the call. Are we holding the bar way too high or do we need to make some compromises here and just pull the trigger, recruit the best of the worst, sorry to put it that way, and then develop them internally. And that’s when you start looking and that’s really, right, why personality’s so, so, so important. But just so sometimes that you have to have the technical skills or at least some foundation so for things to work. Grace, that’s really, really good. Now OK, you find the right candidate. You’re inviting them to an interview. How many interviews. What’s the what’s the process there? Just give us an idea because that’s another thing. There is some organizations where people have one or two interviews. There are some organizations where every single person almost that has a manager title in the company has to meet and interview in such. And so is it necessary? Is not necessarily what you think.

Grace: [00:29:47] So I think that the people that are going to be involved directly with the individual should be the ones involved in the interview. Why? Because obviously, the person that’s going to be managing that individual should be the one that’s making at least a part of the decision, if not the ultimate decision to hire them because they will be responsible for them. Right. So I don’t think everybody has to be involved, but there should be some kind of input in terms of, yes, you have the authority to do this.

Grace: [00:30:18] So the individual that is directly responsible for that person is the one that needs to be the one doing the interview or one step above. If you have, let’s say, an H.R. department or a specific recruiting company or something like that, obviously they’re the ones who would be handling it based on whatever your criteria was. So in my case, you know, I’m the one that goes through the resumes making sure that the assessments are kind of on point. And and to your point before about just pulling the trigger. Yeah, that that kind of happened to me on a specific role that I was looking for before we had our current content coordinator Lindsey. She she passed through a bunch of assessments. And as a matter of fact, I had to give like a test my own physical test that they had to timely send me something back for posting, you know, for social media posting to show me that they could do it. Besides the assessment, she was the only one actually, there were two people, but she was the only one that did it in the time frame that I asked. And then I still put her through two interviews, one on the phone. And this was before covid. Right. So it was one on the phone and one in person.

Liel: [00:31:29] Yeah. 

Grace: [00:31:31] Nowadays, what I would do is after they passed the assessment because of this specific role, right, the intake or customer service data entry person that I’m looking for, I would only put them through two interviews, most likely. I haven’t gotten to that point yet because I’m still going through them. I just posted this job about a week ago, actually less maybe a couple of days ago. So what I’m going to do is I’m going to go through it. I’m going to mark the people that are maybes, you know, and if I don’t get enough applicants after the end of this week, I’m going to have to go back through those and then I’ll reach out to them to do the first interview on the phone. The second interview I’m going to use the platform that is like Zoom and I’m going to do an in-person quote-unquote interview virtually and I’m going to make them wear a full suit.

Grace: [00:32:19] Why? Because I’m going to ask them to stand up. In the interview, I’m not going to tell them I’m going to do that. And I’m going to tell him to please stand up. Why? Because you know, how many people put on pajama pants and a suit top and again, it’s not that you have to come in and it’s not that I’m going to be seeing you every day, it is the fact that you follow directions. So, you know, that’s kind of practical.

Liel: [00:32:49] So let’s backtrack here. You’re actually going to ask them to to to wear business attire for the interview and then you’re going to test them by asking them to stand up? Or you’re just going to call them for an interview. And then when they show up, disregarding what they wearing, if they’re wearing a suit or not, you’re actually going to ask them, just stand up.

Grace: [00:33:11] I’m going to call them for the interview. And on that call, I’m going to tell them if they passed that call, obviously, that I’m going to be set up a secondary interview virtually in person and I need to wear a suit to that call.

Liel: [00:33:24] Ok, then. Fair enough. You’re telling them to wear a suit for this call. There is there is a dress code for this interview. It’s remote, but we still need to wear a dress. You still need to have a dress code, Grace. One hundred percent. You know what? I think that’s very, very, very valid.

Grace: [00:33:43] I mean, it’s not really a trick.

Liel: [00:33:46]  I want to hear the results of that experiment, Grace. Don’t share names, but share what happened. That’s actually very interesting. But I think we can both agree. Based on what you’re saying here, I think you find the right person. Yes, it’s good. As you’ve said, it’s important that people who are going to be the new team members are going to be reporting to need to be part of the interview process. I just don’t think that people need to go two weeks interviewing employees just for the sake of having a process and just for the sake of everyone to be involved in it. If the managing partner of the firm likes to interview every single employee at the law firm because that’s the way they do things, then fantastic. But then the only thing that I would say is, you know, your office manager interviewed the head of the department or the actual direct manager of that individual already interviewed. And everybody had everybody gave this individual the green light. Awesome. Now get the managing partner to meet that person right after those interviews. Don’t schedule it for two weeks after, because at the end of the day, these are people that need a job and are looking, actively looking for a job. You can lose candidates just for putting people on hold, waiting for them to meet for a final third symbolic interview. That’s a mistake that happens. That’s a mistake that people make. And so you need to understand the sense of urgency. Grace. Now, another thing that I do think, however, it’s important, right? Because sometimes people bring people into their teams without necessarily taking much into consideration as to, OK, I’m actually now hiring a manager. I’m not hiring a line-level employee or an entry-level employee. And I think it’s very important, just as a little bit as an exercise for business owners, law firms, office managers, and managing partners to actually understand what the response of the team will be to the type of individual they’re bringing in to lead the team.

Liel: [00:35:48] Right? When they’re hiring for managers not to be dismissed that part, because obviously, you’re not going to have the entry-level employees to actually interview who’s going to be their manager. That’s not actually, it doesn’t work that way. But that’s not to mean that you don’t need to account for their personalities, what they care and what’s going to be a good click. Grace, It’s super, super important. And the reason why this is so fresh and comes to mind is because you’ve probably heard either on social media or news over this week what happened with the recently appointed chief editor at Vogue. And then the entire editorial team just went against her and said, no, we’re not going to work with her because she has this past where she’s made these things and whether it’s acceptable for someone to be held accountable for tweets that were sent 11 years ago and that she has apologized for several times before being offered a job or not. That’s the whole debate on its side. The bottom line is that the organization for Conde Nast not to have anticipated that putting up someone with such record will backfire in such a way with their internal team, with the actual team that she was going to supposed to lead. That was the failure. And so that was a big letdown both to the team and editor that they’ve recently appointed. So it’s a good reminder that you need to be mindful and very, very understanding as to how certain hires can actually play out if you’re getting too blindsided into just looking at one side of the picture, what do you think?

Grace: [00:37:43] Yeah, no, I mean, it’s you have to look at all sides, right, and any time that I’ve been involved in hiring and I actually did a human resources at Target, as a matter of fact, in retail for a couple of years. So when it comes to hiring, the right fit personality is a huge deal. And how they play well with others is another huge deal. And you can kind of tell that a little bit sometimes from references. But you’re also right in that unless you expose, quote unquote, the people that are going to be working under that person, how are they going to know if they’re going to fit right or not? And so I have been in an interview process where a person that is under me is there. They’re not interviewing me, but they’re involved in the process at the very end where this person is going to be. Over you, you can sit in the meeting just to take notes, and then after the meeting, I know they spoke to them to see how they felt about the person that was going to be over them, not to necessarily have them make a decision, but just to ask, hey, this is going to be your new boss. How do you feel about their personality and have an open discussion. Right. Because we are a team, the whole firm is a team and or the whole company is a team. So let’s all have a conversation. And at the very least, I know a couple of them were allowed to kind of some anonymous thoughts so that they feel like they were the ones saying, oh, I really don’t like this person and you can’t hire them. And then felt like they might their job was at risk because they’re telling, you know, the boss man. Not to hire this person, right?

Liel: [00:39:23] Listen, I agree with you, there are so many ways that this can be done. It doesn’t have to be in an interview sort of like context. It can be kind of like meet the team, hear out to get an update from inside the team of what’s been going on and so forth and so on. There is one hundred percent ways that this can be done, but ultimately this falls down under the executive team at the end of the day to really understand and have a very, very clear understanding of what are the values of the company, what are the principles in which everyone in your organization is being held accountable to and make no exceptions on it.

Liel: [00:40:02] So, Grace, I think by now we have covered some good basics. Of course, recruitment is way too complex just to encapsulate it in 30 or 40 minute conversation. But I think we have covered some good principles that go all the way from identifying the need that you need a job or a position all the way to conducting interviews and potentially making an offer. So let’s bring it down to three takeaways.

Grace: [00:40:33] My first takeaway for everybody, no matter who you are, is clearly defined your needs and your culture. To attach what those needs are and the personality that you’re looking for, for that particular role.

Liel: [00:40:49] Yeah, I actually think the best way to go about it is to actually write a job description and at the beginning or the end, it doesn’t necessarily matter where it is. You have to have those values and mission. That component needs to tie always to the actual job description itself. There may be very high level, but they are as important as the very granular tasks that are actually going to define the day to day activities of that particular role. But I think that’s also very important. Right. Have a very clear understanding what is going to be the role of this person, who they’re going to report to, what teams are going to be down to, because just hiring someone for the sake of hiring them and then kind of like try to figure out where do they you know, where will they fit what they’re going to do. It’s not great, not for you and not for the person that you’re hiring. That uncertainty, that the lack of understanding as to what they’re going to do, that insecurity or am I going to be moved around one day to another place? That is not a great feeling and it doesn’t tend to work very well. You can always leave an open note saying, you know, you may be required at times to do some jobs and activities outside of these. But initially, this is your job description. This is what we expect and anticipate you to be doing here. So that’s a great point. Now, you’ve mentioned one other thing, which I think it’s very important and we can potentially make a take away number two, it’s pay competitively. If you really want to attract talent, pay well.

Liel: [00:42:24] And if you can also offer good benefit. The more you remove worries from the people that work for you, I guess the better they can actually concentrate on doing their job without having to worry about getting a secondary job or how to pay for medical bills or I really don’t know. Right. It really depends in your organization what you can do and so forth. The more you can do if you’re in a position to do that, I think you can’t go wrong. What do you think Grace?

Grace: [00:42:56] Definitely. I mean, honestly, I’ve seen enough times and I have seen some of these history of the world type shows where they show you like Hershey’s and how he made this whole town in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and he not only paid them well, but he gave them a place to live. He built the town for them, paid them competitively, gave them health insurance, fed them. I mean, that’s what Google does. If you go to Google in New York, I went to the Google in New York. Amazing. They feed you gourmet food. I mean, there’s pods just to sleeping out, you know. Yeah, it does get more productive.

Liel: [00:43:34] Like Google’s secret recruitment weapon. Is there a cafeteria? Right. It’s really like a food court of a five star mal with all kinds of different food stations where live cooking is happening. It’s a really, really upscale experience. And that’s a big selling point, right? People want to know that they have that security, that they have that experience every day. And so that is why your benefits can also play a massive role in getting you the right talent, particularly if you are in competitive markets, particularly if you’re looking to hire very skilled people for certain positions.

Liel: [00:44:18] Now, Grace, let’s bring one more takeaway. What do you think?

Grace: [00:44:25] One more takeaway. So I think this takeaway would be use all the tools at your disposal, particularly right now during covid. Yeah, there’s plenty of tools out there. Look for something that doesn’t have to be indeed, it doesn’t have to be anything specifically. But look for something that will help you because there’s tons I mean, type of assessment or, you know, but have all of that in place before you start going out and trying to hire because it will make it a lot easier on you and the person that you’re trying to hire, because then they have a mechanism to communicate with you. And if you don’t want to communicate with them directly, at least this way, you have a platform that they’re going to see if they’re a good fit. Because I know a lot of times people don’t want to post jobs on their website and things like that because people may be contacting them too often or directly. And you may not have the mechanism to handle that as a big company. You might be one person. And if that’s the case, then that’s fine. Use the tools that are out there for you so that it makes it easier on you to hire and recruit and all of the little things that you need to do to get the right role. What do you think?

Liel: [00:45:35] Yeah, there is a lot of platforms that really facilitate this whole process, make it rather easy. And it’s not just that Grace, but also allow you to to have a more proactive approach in your recruitment effort, right. If you just put your job on a bulletin board or something like that, you’re waiting for people to come and actually apply for the job, whereas platforms like indeed, LinkedIn, they’re actually proactively messaging people whose profile match what you’re looking for and letting them know whether they’re seeking for employment or not. Hey, there is this position that you qualify for, it seems like, at least based on your skills and experience, and you can apply for it if you’re interested. That’s really fantastic because it really allows you to expedite the process to get more applicants in and to move things through the pipeline as fast and efficiently as you can. I would just add there, Grace, treat your recruitment process like any other goal, set a deadline by when you anticipate to have somebody on the job, because if you’re not doing that, you can end up having open positions forever. Right. And that’s unproductive for everyone, particularly for your team whose workload is potentially getting overwhelmed by it in case you’re actually trying to replace someone who has recently left or not. So make sure that you have deadlines for that. And as I’ve mentioned as well, don’t make the interviewing process ridiculous and tedious for everyone. Be efficient, conduct interviews if possible, line them up like one after the other, like block out people’s calendars so that if the person actually made it through the screening interview can move on to the head of department interview. And if they can move to the head on department, they can move on to talk to the managing partner if necessary, so that those three interviews or at least the last two interviews can happen on the same day. Otherwise, you’re just going to lose the interest also of the candidates potentially.

Grace: [00:47:40] One last point to what you were saying about the calendar and making sure that everyone is available. I have a resource calendar so that everyone shows availability at the same time. And so when we book the time for the person to do the interview. It’s automatically added to the resource calendar. So, yeah, exactly what you said. Yes, that is super important. Need to make sure everyone’s available at the same time.

Liel: [00:48:04] Grace, what a nightmare the days of. Are you available these days time waiting for an email one day. No, I’m not. I can do this day. Oh OK. How about this time. Can you do that time. You know what’s something just popped up no longer available. Thank God we’re no longer in those days. Grace, thank you so much. And we’ll be back next week, another episode.

Grace: [00:48:27] Next week.

Liel: [00:48:29] All right. Take care Grace, have a loveely the rest of your day, Bye.

Grace: [00:48:33] Bye. 

Liel: [00:48:38] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers, leave us a review, and send us your questions to ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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