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S3 E4: The M Dilemma


The M Dilemma
ICP Logo

S3 E4: The M Dilemma




The M Dilemma

January 2021 will forever be marked for the events that took place on social media, from the Twitter bans to the Facebook plots to the Redditors’ rise. And all along, law firm ads are in the midst of all of this. But not for much longer. We discuss why that is.

It has been six months since LSA ads were widely made available to the legal industry nationwide. What has happened since their launch? Have they been as revolutionary as it was initially expected? We explore what we know so far.

You probably wish somedays that your law firm shouldn’t have to rely on so many different Management-Software to operate. We explore the pros and cons of software consolidation.


***For Arizona Lawyers***

Join Liel this Thursday, February 4th, at 1 pm MST for aTurbo Express Hispanic Marketing Webinar

Here’s what you will learn in just 45 minutes:

  • How Hispanics choose law firms.
  • The demand for legal services by Hispanics in Arizona.
  • English vs. Spanish; what is more cost-effective in Arizona?
  • How to find the leads who want to hire your law firm now.
  • What mistakes your actual competitors are making.
  • How to measure the ROI of your strategy.


Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

Enjoy the show? Please don’t forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!

Liel: [00:00:01] Would it make life a lot easier if your law firm were able to generate new Hispanic clients on a regular basis, effortlessly marketing to local Hispanics, prospects may seem easy, especially in a state or a city that has a large Hispanic population. However, as you may have learned the hard way, success is far from guaranteed. Our Nanato Media Turbo Express Hispanic Marketing Webinar will show you how to create a profitable marketing strategy that will put you ahead of your competitors and to ensure the content and strategy is highly relevant for your market. We are creating custom webinars for each state. Our first webinar will be for Arizona lawyers this coming Thursday, February 4th, at 1 p.m. Mountain Standard Time. So if you’re new to Hispanic marketing or want to take your existing strategy to the next level, grab your spot now by following the link in the episode notes. See you there.

Liel: [00:01:00] January 2021 will forever be marked for the events that took place on social media. From the Twitter bans to the Facebook plots to the Reddit rise. And all along Law firms’ ads have been in the midst of all of this, but not for much longer. I’m Leah Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media, and this is In Camera podcast where we are all in for our ad placement control.

Liel: [00:01:54] Welcome to In Camera podcast, Private Legal Marketing Conversations Grace. It’s February, our first episode this month. Can you believe that January is already behind us?

Grace: [00:02:05] It just doesn’t even feel like it. The months went by so fast.

Liel: [00:02:10] What a month, right? What a month. And what an ending to the month. I mean, GameStop, Grace, come on.

Grace: [00:02:17] The Reddit revolt. They’re calling it the Reddit revolt.

Liel: [00:02:19] And fair enough and fair enough. Right. It really shook the stock market. It took it entirely by surprise, Grace. And you know what? In a way or another, as I was listening and learning more about it, it kind of gave me an additional perspective into the value and really why law firms are in such a privileged position to be able to have mass torts as a side investment. Right. As a way to diversify their strategies, because it’s not to say that there is no risk in the Mass Tort world, but at the same time it’s more controlled or at least it continues to be more controlled. I may be taking this statement back three or four years from now that legislation is starting to change and allowing for nonlawyer owned legal businesses to be established, as we’re seeing in Arizona and Utah, potentially in D.C.. Right. Maybe that whole panorama is going to change quite significantly. But still now a Mass Tort, which is kind of like an investment platform exclusively for lawyers. And you don’t have these kind of situations going on, at least not like we had hedge funds against Redditors.

Grace: [00:03:34] Right.

Liel: [00:03:35] Right and right. And so that’s in today’s world. Well, it’s a privilege. What do you think?

Grace: [00:03:42] No, I agree with you. It’s funny because we’ve always talked about it kind of being like the stock market. But exactly like you said, it’s more controlled environment because there’s science behind it. There’s, you know, all kinds of things that aren’t going to be necessarily manipulated by the market.

Liel: [00:03:57] So one hundred percent and I will say, though, however, I do see some of the same behavior that we talk and mention about, well, what we just saw happening, for instance, with GameStop. Right, that a lot of people rushed into buying the stock. Well, that also happens in my store. It’s right. I mean, at some point there’s the frenzy. And so everybody who goes into it for Roundup and everybody’s after Zantac and everybody’s after a talk and now leads that were before generated or in cases that could be generated for just a few hundred dollars are now into the two or three thousand dollars per person case. And so there is some sort of similarities going on in there. I think it’s just a more controlled competitive environment, right?

Grace: [00:04:44] Yeah, because, you know, early on you have the risk. Later on you have less risk, but it costs more money.

Liel: [00:04:49] Yeah. So that’s just kind of like our quick take on GameStop last week. And so, Grace, let’s move on into something else, something that I like to call this quick segment, the breaking news. Do you like that Grace? 

Grace: [00:05:05] I like it. I like it. I know so.

Liel: [00:05:08] Grace and I have been thinking that we should implement some sound effects just to make this a little bit less flat and more interesting. And because we do have access to some sound effects that we’ve always ignored and never quite used them, we’re going to try to incorporate them. Please bear with us. We’re just learning to distinguish between the different keys and colors and stuff. So we make launch the wrong sound effect for the wrong part or a particular moment, but we promise we’ll get better at it.

Liel: [00:05:33] So, Grace, back to the news. Facebook and is just came out to me today and it’s for me revolutionary. So Facebook are testing brand safety topic exclusions for advertisers. Now, Grace, why is this important? Remember a few weeks ago you and I were having a conversation about why advertisers are kind of being alienated from Facebook? It’s because of the ad placement is because you don’t know what’s going to be before and after your ad. That’s problematic because advertisers, many of them don’t want to see their ads in between topics that, for instance, Facebook calls crime and tragedy. Right. So now with what I just said, now, what Facebook is testing is actually ad placement for the first time Facebook will allow advertisers to actually choose in which kind of topics their ads can show up so you can actually decide to exclude certain topics.

Liel: [00:06:39] One of them, as I just said, it could be crime and tragedy. You could also exclude yourselves from news and politics. You can also exclude yourself from social issues. And so that way you can protect your brand from it being associated with issues in other aspects that you’re not interested in taking part on or that you definitely don’t want your law firm to be associated in. And so this is really a really powerful Grace because it gives a lot of control back to businesses. And what Facebook is trying to solve with these is limit the amount of impact that happens when all of the sudden the social platform, the social media platforms explodes with content about social issues, crime, whatever it is that it could be happening in the world at that time.

Liel: [00:07:26] And then user and then advertisers pull off their ads from there because of Facebook misinformation algorithm. You call it whatever it is. At least now Facebook is giving the option to advertisers to say, OK, wait a second, you can still show your ads, but will make sure that they are not showing around any of these topics that you have issues with. Right. So I think this is very remarkable, Grace, and it’s a great game-changer for Facebook advertising.

Grace: [00:07:54] It sure is. That’s a massive change. I mean, to be able it’s that same idea with that YouTube video issue, right. Where all of a sudden you have your YouTube video and then you know what’s playing after it is something completely irrelevant. \

Liel: [00:08:07] Right. But but then, for instance, with everything that has to do with Google at YouTube, including, you have control over that. Right. So if you’re if you’re having that sort of problems, then you have to potentially better optimize your campaigns because you can control ad placement, you can control content. You can be selective as to which kind of platforms, which kind of content your ads are seen. And that’s the beauty that Google has always had to it. But Facebook did not. And just a few weeks ago, we were actually talking about that as being problematic. So now Facebook is addressing these, but it’s not out there yet. It’s being tested. Obviously, they care a lot about this. This has become a very, very top of the agenda item for them. And so I believe that is very likely that we’re going to learn and see this may be coming into place within the next weeks or maybe a month or two. But I can certainly tell that there is a lot of interest in rolling this out. So that’s terrific news. Grace, another thing which I’m not going to really dive into that much today, because we have another topic that we need to get to, is the impact of local service ads in Google ads. So that was a yes. As I was going over news this week, I saw one article on Search Engine Journal and actually search engine land, and it actually included some takes about the impact that local service ads had had on Google ads for lawyers. And one of the contributors to the article is Blue Shark Digital.

Liel: [00:09:49] And they’re kind of like talking about how the lawyers who wear advertising in both platforms. Right. Or they’re not joining, let’s say, ads, but they were only doing Google ads saw in what is considered a sharp decline. Right. In conversions and potentially an increase in cost per conversion. So it’s been impactful. Grace, I know I’m not going to lie to you. I think it’s really taken the Google advertising in English, particularly in English. Right. I know, you know, you need to differentiate here, but Google advertising in English by storm, because what I found interesting, I haven’t seen it myself a lot, but it seems like in some cases and for some very high, intense search queries, there is a world they have a clear screenshot there in Philadelphia of car accident lawyer in Philadelphia being the search query and only local search ads showing up as ads and completely skipping the traditional search ads Grace. And that’s as I’ve said, I haven’t seen that a lot. Most markets actually do the opposite, right? You get the traditional Google search ads and sometimes you see the LSA ads showing up and sometimes the LSA ads only show when the search query is extremely specific. But yes, but long-tail search terms do not trigger the LSA ads.

Liel: [00:11:19] So it’s kind of like we’re getting different snapshots from different markets in the way that things have been registering for different law firms. Each one is its own story. But as a whole, it’s fair to say that the impact is there. Right. And so I think that it’s worth one hundred percent for law firms to add these to the mix and see what is it that they’re getting out of it, are they’re getting a better performance from their normal Google ads? That’s great. They’re not getting good performance from their normal Google ads, then it’s time to optimize Google ads so they can continue to compete against LSA and still be able to make good leads at a good ROI from Google ads campaigns, because as I’ve said, what we are noticing here is that LSA, because you have such little control over these campaigns, you kind of rely on them right?

Grace: [00:12:19] Right.

Liel: [00:12:19] I can tell and I can see. And there are some markets where people are actually, you know, getting a good flow of leads and some of those slates are actually good. They can retain them. And so if you’re in there and that’s your scenario, that’s great. But the bottom line is that as more attorneys are joining the pool of LSA ads, then the number of leads needs to get distributed by a larger number of people who are interested in paying for them. And so we’re seeing in big markets like Houston and such like you’re standing in line forever, right? You’re standing in line forever. Or you just have to be ridiculously high which then makes the campaign kind of like inefficient.

Liel: [00:13:00] So, Grace, that was just kind of like a quick, LSA recap. This is a topic that we’re probably going to be jumping in and out of for the next few months quite a bit. There is so much to say. And as I’ve said, it’s not fair to say and put a flat out rule to it as to it’s not good. It’s good because it will depend by the practice area and by the market. But certainly, it has quite a bit of limitation. So, Grace, I want to now shift to our next topic for today, and I’m going to try to hit something else in here. Hopefully it will be relevant. Now that that’s not quite what we were going for. Doesn’t matter Grace, let’s try anyhow and shift to our next topic, which is the difference between CMS case management software, lead management software and CRM.

Grace: [00:14:01] That’s right. Client relations management.

Liel: [00:14:04] Yes, right. So too many different software to analyze here, Grace. True, we’ve talked about those before in the past, but give us a quick overview of what each one of those are. Which one of those are necessary and why are we even comparing them?

Grace: [00:14:27] So the reason this topic even came up was because I actually had the last few weeks people have been asking me sort of questions about integrations and how things work, how their case management works versus a CRM versus lead management. And just to give you, I think would be helpful is if I gave you examples of what each of those are or what they could be called and what you might have been used to seeing. And from our industry, you know, Lead Dockett is basically a lead management software, whereas Zoho CRM is strictly a CRM. And then you have a case management software, which would be something like smart advocate or file vine or those types of literally case management software where you manage the cases.

Grace: [00:15:16] So for me, those are the basic three differences that I’ve seen.

Liel: [00:15:21] One manages the leads that are generated from your marketing efforts.

Grace: [00:15:25] Correct.

Liel: [00:15:26] The other one actually keeps record of these leads. Right.

Grace: [00:15:32] Of the relationship, right. Of the client. So as you’re working the leads, the communications, everything.

Liel: [00:15:38] Correct. But it’s fair to say that the CRM will have two poles. Right. Those who are not just clients, but kind of like somewhere in your pipeline and your clients as well. But here we’re focusing on the relationship side of things, whereas when you’re bringing the case management component, that is specifically for the actual process of handling the case of those contacts in your CRM that have actually become clients, correct?

Grace: [00:16:11] Exactly. And I think it would help if people can think of a lead management software sort of as a pre-CRM and a CRM as a pre case management software piece, that you then push your cases once their clients, as you said, into your case management software, because that’s a case.

Liel: [00:16:31] Great. So Grace. Let’s start with the beginning. Right, because I can see here that this clearly breaks into three stages in the client journey. And the first one is going to be obviously the lead management software. Right, because that’s where it all starts. Correct. So you’ve mentioned Lead Dockett, right?

Liel: [00:16:52] Maybe some people are more familiar with other platforms, like, for instance, Call Rail or maybe some people are actually using their CRMs also as a way to track the actual leads that are being generated through their different digital and offline marketing activities, even referrals. Right. So anything can be tracked through this software. Now, Grace, are there differentiation specifically between a CRM and because I’ve just said here, right, for instance, HubSpot can do a little bit of both. It can actually do your lead tracking in terms of tying up the marketing activities where their leaders are coming from and then populating that into your CRM and you have it all kind of consolidated. But when or what would be the instances in which you would have to use two different ones? Or why would you want to have two different platforms that do basically similar things but have some very strategic differentiation?

Grace: [00:17:52] So I know it can be hard for a lot of law firms to think of themselves as a sales component or any type of sales that they do, but they do sales. Right. So a CRM is generally meant for the relationship that you’ve created after they’ve become a lead to now working down the nurture or sales cycle to get them to be a client. So when you’re speaking to these people as a salesperson, quote-unquote, whether you’re the attorney or an intake professional, you care about closing that sale. And so when you manage a lead through the sales funnel, you’re looking at that data as opposed to operations or someone in marketing who’s looking at the data of the activities that it takes to get them to that point. So most of the time, people don’t think of lead management as separate from a CRM because a CRM almost always has some components of lead management. Right. It has to work because you need to know where they are in the lifecycle of your CRM for the relationship that you’re trying to build. Makes sense? 

Liel: [00:18:59] So Grace, yeah, it does. And I think it also explains why the recent acquisition firm Lead Dockett by file vine. Right? 

Grace: [00:19:08] Right.

Liel: [00:19:09] Because at the end of the day, file vine may be able to flex as a CRM and as a case management software. But it’s still, you know. To be a holistic solution needs to have an actual lead tracking component to it, and I think that’s really what Lead Dockett was going after being able to really give granular information to law firms as to what is currently generating their leads. Where are they coming from and where in their journey? And then by now being tied to file vine the transition from being a lead into being a client and to having an actual case right is consolidated into one single platform, and that’s a great solution for those who actually want to use this software as their case management slash CRM slash lead management software. But you don’t necessarily have to go that route. You can actually have different software talking to each other. So how do you make that all integrate Grace? What are the considerations that you need to have to make sure that you can actually get information from one platform to another platform to another platform so you don’t have to reinvent the wheel? Because I know I can tell you, like, if you were to tell me, you need to now change your CRM into a new one. What a headache, right? What a headache. I’m going to 100 percent first consider what options do I have to integrate with another platform that can give me that missing component that I don’t have? OK, so what are the options? What are the considerations?

Grace: [00:20:58] And to your point, it’s exactly how you should consider it, right? What do you have right now in place? What do you have? What don’t you have in place? And how can you make all of your systems speak to each other? Right. Because particularly with everyone working remote nowadays, there was kind of a scramble to figure out how we’re going to go from our standard old school of, you know, this system doesn’t necessarily talk to the system. There has to be double-entry or import or this or that. Now everything has to be in the cloud. And how does one system talk to the next? So the considerations that need to be kept in mind are what data points, right? What information do you absolutely need to get from one system to the next? Pair down to the bare minimum of what information you actually need to work within your case management software or from your lead to your CRM or from your CRM to your case management software. So any one of those points, you need to just know what information or data points that you’re looking for. When I say data points, I’m just talking about something simple, like their actual full name, their date of birth, potentially, you know, some non-important information, not the social necessarily. You’ll probably put that only in the case management software, but things like that contact information. So those data points are those fields are the ones that you’re going to need to integrate. Can you integrate them? Is there a capability of the different pieces of software that you are using currently to integrate? I’d say 99.9%  of the time, yes. OK, they do have options for integration. Most of these case management software out there like Clio, file vine, they allow you to integrate with other pieces of software in the most basic way, which is what you need. So those are the considerations that you must have in your mind before you get into another piece of software that you might need. But you have to think about it. Do I need lead management? Should I use something like Lead Dockett? Do I need a CRM because I want to do the whole relationship plus the lead management within it. Think about the things that you need for the campaigns that you run as a law firm. And those are the data points that you’ll need to push into the case management software. And then you just worked as a case.

Liel: [00:23:18] Right Grace, and here is the thing, right? Because a lot of people may think, well, having it all sitting on one single platform may be great. And let’s be frank, it has a lot of conveniences. There is. But there are other elements that you need to take into consideration. Right. Costs of licensing. OK, and so you may want to explore really who needs access to what, because you may realize that not your entire team needs access to all three platforms. Some team members maybe only good having access to the lead tracking sort of side of things, some of them to the CRM, some of them to the case management. Right. And so by being able to segment that, that’s actually going to give you great flexibility of controlling costs. But security as well. Right, because you just don’t want users to have access to everything and every single platform where they shouldn’t have. So that’s one component, of course. Right. Holistic platforms may have solutions, may have built-In solutions like different user levels and things like that. But again, we’re talking here in a scenario where you already have different platforms, where you’re trying to bring something new. Well, now you can actually think about your operations and who is actually going to be using what and based on that, make your decisions as to which platforms you’re going to use. I think what you said Grace about software integration is spot on. OK, this is the same thing. Do you actually need one hundred percent of the data to be synched or is it some very particular elements that you need to be fed backward and forwards between one platform and the other? So that’s obviously going to be important.

Liel: [00:25:08] And quite frankly, with applications like Zapier, it’s just now more easy than ever to really connect apps that are even not integrated by default through API. You can do it through third-party applications that will allow you to trigger events by just simple formulas that if this happens here, this happens there. And there you go. Right, right. It’s a solution that gives you the essential communication between three or two or five different platforms, depending on how many you use. It’s not just limited to that. You can have CRM, but you can also have a lead tracking platform and you can also have a marketing software platform separately. Right. And we haven’t even brought in the CRM sorry, the case management software to the picture, so there could be more you don’t necessarily have to limit yourself to use one and that’s it. But of course, what we are seeing, Grace is that for the sake of user experience, consolidation is becoming path, the trend. Those platforms who have been in the business of case management are trying to obviously diversify their capabilities so that they can be more holistic and become more kind of like the one to go solutions. So if you ask me if I’m a new lawyer or if I’m just getting started, I would 100 percent start looking at those options and see can I afford them? Because at the end of the day, these may be good, right? I mean, one solution, one platform, one log-in, one screen, one browser tab. This sounds easy. So, Grace, thank you so much. It’s always great to revisit these platforms, terminologies, solutions, because you’ve said it. We are still living in the cloud and we’re probably going to be here forever. So we might as well. Yup.

Liel: [00:27:08] So we might as well get better at keeping these platforms optimized, integrated, and maximizing their productivity through them.

Grace: [00:27:20] Exactly.

Liel: [00:27:20] Maximizing our productivity through them.

Grace: [00:27:23] Right.

Liel: [00:27:24] You saw what I did there.

Grace: [00:27:25] I did. And I think it’s super important to note what you said, you know, kind of partway through this conversation. Licensing. Right. Cost. That’s one of the top reasons why people don’t want to add more licenses to even the case management software. Right. Because it gets expensive. So it’s a super important consideration and it should be probably at the top when you’re considering things and then the data and so on and so on.

Grace: [00:27:52] But yes. 

Liel: [00:27:53] One hundred percent. Another thing here, another thing here, which a lot of people I’m just going to do that Grace and then leave. You know what I’ll do it my take away number one.

Liel: [00:28:01] How do you like that? 

Grace: [00:28:05] I like it.

Liel: [00:28:05] Takeaway number one is be very mindful of the terms of your licensing. Why? Because what happens very frequently is that these platforms evolve and they’re completely changed between one year and the other year based on certain upgrades that they make their entire pricing model, which would also change the actual number of allowed licenses, number of benefits or applications, whatever, that are actually embedded into your plan and program. And what will happen very frequently is that if you were a client with a pre-existing license for this, isn’t this the right way or the right term?

Grace: [00:28:53] It’s existing. You had them before they were sold or changed their licensing structure.

Liel: [00:28:58] Exactly. What they will do oftentimes is they’ll grandfather your status and many times you end up winning there because you’re still paying, you know, your entry-level fee or whatever. And so but because you kind of got inherited to the new program that now has full more features and whatever and whatnot, you know, you’re you can get a lot of benefits still and not necessarily pay more. So. Right. But what they do sometimes there is they’ll add one or two additional extra perks that they may want to make you reconsider and say, ha, but if I upgrade to these now, I will have access to that. Yes, you may. But now your license is potentially going to double or triple, maybe not on the first batch of upgrades that you make, but then within six months with the new model as a whole, you’re going to end up paying considerably more than you were paying before. So be very, very mindful not to get too distracted when these changes happen by the little shiny things, because you may be able to still operate without them or find a solution somewhere else and get a super bang for your buck on keeping retaining your grandfathered plan. Yeah, for as long as you can operate that way.

Grace: [00:30:13] 100 percent Liel. I have to tell you, that exact same thing happened to us last year with base CRM was purchased by Zendesk. So they changed the licensing structure to double what we were paying. If I upgraded to have the new integrations that they made available to me, it would have cost me double. I had left it where it was, I stayed, grandfathered into the base enterprise level, which is half the price without the integrations. And that’s OK because I have integrations with other parts and other components that save me money without having to worry about the, you know, upgrading my license for the new shiny things.

Liel: [00:30:53] That’s the way of doing it Grace.

Grace: [00:30:55] So I guess I could take takeaway number two from you right now. Takeaway number two in my mind is: think about the different components of your process. You have to know your process to do this. What is your process from the moment a client gets becomes aware of you to the moment that they become a client and everything in between. Do you need lead management software? Do you need a CRM? Can your case management software potentially do some of the things that you need from the lead management software? It could maybe. Maybe it can’t in most cases, just a you know, case management software can do some of the things, but the specific things that you need, you need to define in a process first so that you can then determine what you should be purchasing if anything, and what you should be integrating, if anything. What do you think, Liel?

Liel: [00:31:52] I like it Grace. I like it.

Grace: [00:31:54] So what do you think let’s do take away number three here? For me, takeaway number three is kind of take away from your first conversation about our little breaking news. Actually, it’s not even about CRM or case management, because I think we’ve pretty much said that.

Liel: [00:32:12] Buy GameStop stocks don’t sell. Don’t sell the GameStop stock. Hahaha. 

Grace: [00:32:23] Yeah, no, no, no. It’s actually about Facebook. Now that Facebook has this potential new BETA. Right. Where take a look at… 

Liel: [00:32:23] Not even a BETA yet. 

Grace: [00:32:23] Nothing available. Yeah, right. Right. Start thinking about the different places that you don’t want your stuff to show up and take the opportunity to also go back and make sure that your display advertising is being done the way you think it should, that your ads aren’t popping up where they shouldn’t. If they are and you’re using somebody that’s not Lie, obviously there’s something wrong. You need to use someone like Liel because he will make sure that your advertising doesn’t show up on the wrong place.

Grace: [00:33:11] But truthfully, you need to take a look at this stuff and you need to make sure that you are regularly checking at the very least regularly have somebody checking in your firm that you trust to make sure that your ads aren’t coming up where they shouldn’t. And particularly with everything going on, guys, we all know this. There’s so many crazy things going on in the world and all these issues and problems. And you don’t want your ad to pop up in an insensitive spot. It will just break you. It’ll break the brand. It could break all kinds of things. And that’s the last thing that you need in this day and age.

Liel: [00:33:45] That’s 100 percent gross. And I can tell you already a few things that potentially are going to happen here. Right. Facebook is potentially going to encourage for you to be flexible and allow them to decide where things are showing. They’ll tell you, OK, you want to show only for these topics or exclude these topics and they’ll tell you you’re going to have a very limited rich. You need to change something in what you’re doing. So expect that. And the other thing is also don’t necessarily overthink this too much. I think at this point, you know, whether the ad placement of Facebook has been a trouble for your campaigns or if it’s actually been OK and if it’s actually been OK, well, you probably then don’t want to necessarily, you know, jump into this new segmentation of because you’re probably not going to necessarily improve things. But, of course, if you are among those law firms that have been bombarded with hate comments and stuff, you probably need to look into that end whilst you’re waiting for all of this to take place. You should also be looking at your segmentation as well. Right? Are you actually targeting the right people or are your ads being consumed by a lot of people that really have no business seeing your ads? So because that’s many times that’s sort of one of the reasons that cause this whole antagonism, is that these people were initially never they should have never been served your ad in the first place.

Liel: [00:35:14] And that’s the actual audience segmentation, not necessarily tied to the SEC, to the ad placement itself. But, yes, the placement has a tremendous impact. Right. You know, it just changes your mood, what you’re seeing on the screen, what’s actually popping in front of you. And then you’re seeing an ad and you and you cannot not say like, you know, these guys have no shame showing these type of, you know, showing their ads right next to something like this. So, you know, a lot to think a lot of a lot to digest, but at the same time, is it worth it? Do you, I mean, are you going to go against what Facebook is good at?

Grace: [00:35:53] Yeah. You know, that’s why I said look at the ecosystem. And I like that you always add a caveat to what I’m saying so that people do look at the ecosystem of what they’re dealing with. It’s not necessarily just a display advertising placement. It’s the segmentation maybe. Maybe it’s this. So, yes, people do know they’re the information to a degree. But what I want them to pay attention to is to. Do pay attention to these little things, and it’s always the time to look at what’s going on with your advertising and just make sure that it’s going the way you think it should.

Liel: [00:36:27] That’s absolutely right, Grace. And one less thing, the creative work, right. Don’t blame it all on the platform. Is your creative work good enough to make the cut for Facebook to want to show it, right? Yes. So like for Facebook to want to show it, but for users to actually engage with it in a way that you would want them to.

Liel: [00:36:50] So, Grace, what a great conversation. It’s always fun. My favorite part of the week, you know, I said every single week, it’s always great talking to you. So I will do it again next week. 

Grace: [00:37:02] Same time next week.

Liel: [00:37:04] OK, let me put something else. I think I’ll.

Liel: [00:37:08] There we go, Grace. Yes, now we have a relevant sound effect.

Liel: [00:37:15] All right, Grace. All the best. Have a great rest of your week.

Grace: [00:37:18] Thank you, Liel.

Liel: [00:37:24] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers, leave us a review, and send us your questions to ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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