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S2 E42: Wind of Adjustment


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ICP Logo

S2 E42: Wind of Adjustment




Wind energy

As we approach the 2021 countdown and eagerly look at leaving behind the unpredictability of 2020, we reflect on the legal trends that got accelerated for better or worse in 2020 and are here to stay.

Suppose you are one of the law firms that fell in love with video conferencing and remote working. In that case, we have some excellent news for you. A big part of your clients also did and will want you to continue doing it even after everything goes back to normal, and you can sit in front of someone in an enclosed space at a normal distance without wearing masks.

Some argue that 2020 accelerated business and consumer behavior at a rate of 10 years in technological progress. And this has pushed law firms to reassess their entire client experience, team skills, organizational structure, and even considering creating whole new positions to adapt to a new type of business model that won’t be gone even after the NYE ball drops.

5 Trends That Will Shape Legal Practices in 2021 by Sally Kane

Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com

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Liel: [00:00:00] Covid-19 is by no means behind us yet we can’t help to feel excited about the news that the light at the end of the tunnel is finally visible to all of us. And when law firms finally make it to the other side, it will be a new place, but with many of the same things we experienced while in the tunnel. I’m Liel Levy, co-founder of Nanato Media and this is Incamera podcast, where we celebrate that client experience is finally a term used by law firms.

Liel: [00:01:01] Welcome to Incamera podcast, Private Legal Marketing Conversations. Grace, it’s a pleasure to welcome you back. How are you today?

Grace: [00:01:08] Good. How are you, Liel?

Liel: [00:01:10] Good. Grace, thank you very much for asking. So tell me, we were recording this episode right as we are approaching the end of the week after the bank holiday. So how does being all crazy for you?

Grace: [00:01:25] A little bit. You know, it always hurries up and wait. Catch up, catch up after a long holiday. So it’s a little crazy, but manageable.

Liel: [00:01:33] Yes. I agree with you. It is always crazy. And it’s also, particularly for Thanksgiving. It’s because really, right after that holiday, I think a lot of people kind of like enter into the mindset like, alright, right. Like we are really now heading towards the end of the year and I got to get all of my shit together. Right, like this is it. This is the time that certain conversations need to be had. This is a time that certain things that have been procrastinated need to be taken care of. And I think a lot of people’s approach to those things shifts when they actually get into this spot. Like it’s kind of like the pressure is on. Do you get that feeling as well, Grace? A little bit.

Grace: [00:02:18] Most definitely. Through all of the different divisions we have, everybody wants to get onboarded now and get all of their things kind of tied up before the end of the year. So, yeah. 

Liel: [00:02:29] I agree with you. And just because you said they onboarded, it’s also a super exciting time in the year because it’s when really you get an opportunity also to have a lot of conversations with law firms that are actually thinking of doing things differently or integrating something new for the coming year.

Liel: [00:02:48] And this year has been no exception, at least for us as an agency. We have had some very interesting conversations with law firms who are saying, well, you know what, we want to make twenty twenty one the year that we actually take the lead and make an effort to have a strong presence within the Hispanic market in their local markets. And that’s actually something that we are passionate about and we enjoy. And so it’s always great to be able to have those conversations. But this really doesn’t matter which time of the year. But it just happens to be that the end of the year is a time where a lot of people start to reflect on these things and it opens up the windows for that. So it’s a busy time Grace, it’s a busy time, just as we were saying. I think both you and I appreciate it a lot, having that little gap and break of Thanksgiving just to take one or two steps back and appreciate things, small things, which with accelerated lives even in the middle of a pandemic, just feel good.

Grace: [00:03:48] It does time to be thankful and time to reflect is always a nice time. You know, if you can spend that time and actually do it, it’s always helpful to you and your business, right?

Liel: [00:03:59] Yeah, that’s another thing. Right. I think a lot of us are rested and recharged and ready for that right to take care of business. Right.

Liel: [00:04:09] That’s what actually generates all of this pressure and all of these interest. And it’s actually good. Right? It’s always great to have that feeling of wanting to move forward. So, Grace, with that in mind and in line with a series of conversations that we’ve been having over the past few weeks, we’re going to now talk this week about an article that we came across from the American Legal Magazine. Right. And it’s about the five trends that will shape legal practice in twenty twenty-one. So, Grace, how does the title sign to you?

Grace: [00:04:41] I really think that that’s a perfect segway from our previous conversation on social media trends for twenty twenty one. And I think that the way they laid it out really makes sense to me because you can kind of boil it down to five specific trends because I feel like it’s an overarching conversation. Right. And all of the little things that we just said before we started this, I mean, as soon as we started the podcast to me, falls in line with what they’re talking about.

Liel: [00:05:12] Yeah, I so Grace, everything you said there. And also because sometimes we get too focused on marketing and SEO and PPC and Facebook, but it’s very important to understand that there is a lot of many other factors that impact the business that consequently impact and change the way in which the marketing strategies are planned, implemented and measured. So that’s why I think this conversation is very relevant, because it actually looks at the bigger picture of things that are having an impact right now in the way law firms are being run and that are very likely here to stay or to grow as strengths. So, Grace, let’s start in and let’s first give a shout out to the author of the article, which is Sally Cain, and we’ll link her article in the episode notes. So if you want to actually see the full article here, Sally pieced together, it’s going to be there for you.

Liel: [00:06:19] Ok, so first point, Grace. 

[00:06:22] The first point’s talking about new talent and hiring strategies.

Grace: [00:06:26] So I can speak to this actually from a couple of different perspectives, luckily from the law firm perspective and then just from the legal practice perspective, including the services that we provide, you know, we’re nonlawyers lawyers are not limited to paralegals anymore.

Grace: [00:06:44] Right. So the idea of creating a more business-like structure, in my opinion, is what they’re talking about. What do you think, Liel?

Liel: [00:06:53] One hundred percent, Grace. And actually, you know, it it brings me back to an earlier conversation we had this year with one of the attorneys. Right. And his title was CEO. Right. And we asked them, like, why is it CEO and not managing partner or something that is more conventional and traditional for law firms?

Liel: [00:07:21] And so he did explain. Right, because the business model that we have in the law firm actually fits this title the way we are organized and structured. This is how it fits. So I’m trying to remember, was it CEO or was its CEO and chief legal strategist?

Grace: [00:07:38] I heard a chief legal strategist, actually, quite a bit.

Liel: [00:07:41] So anyhow, it could have been both or not. Doesn’t really matter. The bottom line is that law firms are starting to transition more to business-like models than just the more traditional law firm or organizational structure that we knew.

Liel: [00:07:58] Right. Which is managing partners, partners, paralegals, intake, receptionist, whatever. Right. Office manager, if any. So more specific roles, different titles, different organizational structure. And I think it’s another thing that is worth including in this particular point, is the fact that a lot of work is also getting outsourced. Right. Is bringing in and acknowledging that certain level of expertise cannot be handled in-house for whatever reason that could be. Different law firms, different sizes, different motives, why you would want to outsource certain business needs. But the bottom line is that this is getting normalized and is actually not being seen as a bad practice anymore. Right. Like before, there used to be a little bit of a stigma like, no, no, we would like to handle it all in the house. Everything would like to do it in-house. And I think now people understand that there is actually a value in establishing some partnerships with other talented individuals, organizations that could actually better support you in taking care of particular parts of your business. And this is, you know, like our minds think to go always to marketing. But there is a lot of other things, whether that’s intake, whether that’s research, medical records, like you name it. There are so many things that sometimes can be better handled when outsourced than actually handled internally. And I know Grace as Persist, you actually give a solution to law firms who actually deal with a lot of call volume, a lot of leads that need to be organized and reached out to and such. And so I think it’s it’s a trend that law firms now see, this is a good path to take. Let’s try some good partnerships, whether it’s with other organizations, freelancers, or SaaS companies. What do you think?

Grace: [00:09:55] One hundred percent. I mean, you know, we like to use even when it comes to hiring, we use technology in the hiring process. Right. With automation and automation and testing, making sure that they go through the different parameters that we have for that particular role. And then if we can, we supplement our technology with maybe one individual right where that person will be sort of a supervisor of the software and making sure everything is running the way it should. So all these different roles that are kind of popping up because of technology and replacing even in some cases and then what you were talking about. Right, the distributed workforce now, because everything is kind of out in the cloud remote because of covid. And then on top of that, like you said, vendor outsourcing for different parts of your business. And so in all of those changes require a change in the way you hire, and your strategies have to change and line up with the new technology, the new needs that you have for how your business model works.

Liel: [00:11:00] So I totally agree with you, Grace, there, and one thing that obviously, as we continue to go through this list is going to stay there consistently in every single point is going to be the impact that technology has had on all ends across the spectrum. Right. Like, it’s just touched every single part of the business. And I think it’s fair to say that for the good. So let’s move on to the next point, which is increased focus on client experience. Grace, again, like you can see that I am in a reflective mode, like I’m thinking all the way back into the different conversations that we’ve had this year and such. And I remember when we first started using the term client experience earlier in twenty twenty, it felt like we were adopting a term that was used in other industries but was not yet common in the legal industry. And so for me now to start seeing client experience more widely used across the legal vertical, it’s kind of like a mission accomplished sort of moment, like the conversation has been established and some indications of that. Well, of course, we have this article. We have also a book published earlier this year with a client centered law firm. And there’s actually quite a lot of focus being put into that is just not enough with being a great lawyer that achieves great results. It’s all about what experience also your clients have while they’re working with you.

Liel: [00:12:38] How easy and convenient is it for them to be your clients? Is it an actual enjoyable experience? Do you meet them where they want to be met in the sense that when they have to follow up on a case status with you, can they do it easily when they have to send over documentation to you? Is it seamless and intuitive process, right. When they have to pay your bills, can they do it in a way that it’s convenient for them? And so all of those different touchpoints have now a very important impact in the overall experience. Right. The client will take with them when they finish the collaboration with you. And I think one of the things that have raised the awareness for these to the extent that we now have, is the fact that we are now in the era of reviews. Right, users have taken control over the narrative, and they’re the ones who decide, yes, your service was great or not.

Liel: [00:13:46] It was not great. And I’m actually going to go and talk about it there. Yeah, the results were fantastic, but it took forever to be able to talk to the attorney or they don’t return your calls or there were issues with the billing and invoicing and whatever that is. You want to make sure that the experience is consistent across the board. It’s not just enough. Right. We’re having a great lawyer and it’s also not enough just with having great marketing. Right, Grace? I mean, again. I’m going to bring it back to the intake, right? You can have the best, and more convincing and compelling strategies and brand awareness, but it’s by the time people actually ring sorry, call your law firm. The experience is not there. It was then worthless, the marketing effort was worthless because it’s not going to translate to actual results. So, Grace, what are your thoughts on client experience?

Grace: [00:14:42] So when it comes to client experience, I like to kind of liken it to the Google experience. Right. How Google’s constantly been refining the user experience with Google. That is exactly the same thing that’s been happening with law firms. They have the onus is on them. The onus is on the law firm to create the client experience that the client is expecting because the client’s expectations have just basically, not basically, they have increased year over year. And so as a client, I am now expecting you to personalize your marketing, personalize your outreach, literally personalize everything to me as your client, which that’s the way it should be in theory. Right. And unfortunately, a lot of times many firms have been a little late to the game. But as you said, the technology and everything that’s been happening with the client experience has kind of pushed everybody into a requirement, not just the oh, I kind of would like to make the client experience more seamless and less friction for the client. No, now it’s a must. There’s no question about it anymore.

Liel: [00:15:50] I totally agree, Grace. So, you know, when people say competition is good, this is what it is, right? This is what it means. It forces you to move out of your comfort zone and do things, challenge yourself to do things better. And I think that’s what we are seeing with the focus on client experience and the way that it has disrupted the handling of business in law firms and the client-attorney interactions as they’ve been up until now. So, Grace, we have point number three and it’s…

Grace: [00:16:31] Emerging technologies. You know how much I love talking about tech, so as do you.

Grace: [00:16:41] So, yeah, we all know that there’s no secret. Right, technology has changed. It has changed. The face of the law practice, changed the way we interact with our customers or clients with everything we do. And it will just continue to change. The only constant in this world is change. Right. So I feel like I can speak pretty briefly, but also extensively. I could probably have a whole podcast on just emerging technologies. But when it comes to technology, look, the important thing is to make sure that you implement something, at least one thing that makes it easier on your client. Right. To me, that is just the utmost goal. And since we’re looking at things kind of from a twenty thousand foot view from above into twenty twenty one, it doesn’t have to be the end of the world that you don’t have all of the different things in place that you think you need to have to make the client experience a thousand percent. Right. Just start with, like Liel said near the beginning of the podcast intake. Right. Just start with one little piece that, you know, can help your client from the very, very beginning, if you can. So, you know, artificial intelligence is doing all kinds of stuff that used to be done by maybe a paralegal. Intake people are now just basically talking to clients, at least with persist. That’s how it runs. It automates all of the miscellaneous tasks that people normally would have to do on their own. You know, the emailing, the actual dialing out leaving voicemails and texting so that it makes it more efficient for your firm and by using technology to make the client experience better.

Liel: [00:18:22] Exactly, absolutely Grace. That’s so that’s exactly the game plan. Right. Use technology to improve the customer experience, the client experience. Right. To humanize more your actual real interactions when you get the opportunity to be in front of your clients.

Liel: [00:18:40] And one thing and this is really interesting, because as I was preparing for this podcast, that’s where I was reviewing a recent report that that Deloitte put out, which is on market analysis for twenty twenty one. And it shows that obviously this year people were pushed to have to adopt technology in order to be able to just do or continue with life as normal as it could be. And the whole sentiment on technology has completely shifted in society over this year. So people who may have had resistance to doing certain things online or using certain technology for certain things, they now feel positive about it and they will continue to use it even after we are out of covid-19. Right. So one thing that we have, for instance, been saying is that do we see in-person conferences vanishing for good? No, they’re not right, because those fulfill another purpose other than just providing you the content of the actual conference. But our video conferences, zoom conferences are going to continue being convenient for clients. Probably they will, right? Probably they will, because they are time-saving, they’re efficient and they can be also personal. So there are certain things that are going to stay with us for the time to come. And so for you to have embraced this technology and make it part of your standard operations is kind of like an expectation that your clients will have as we are shifting into the new year. So I would definitely think that for those who are still thinking that this is going to be a momentarily scenario in which we are and then things are going to completely revert to being what they were before the pandemic, they’re going to face another big challenge when things and the dust settle because online appointments are one hundred percent is going to stay there. And potentially more interactions through text messaging chat. Right. Communications that can be handled easily online, digitally remote. Those are all trends that I think Grace are here to stay for good.

Grace: [00:21:04] Definitely. And even in some cases where they like the trial court’s right, some of the trial courts have gone 100 percent zoom meetings and zoom trials, even jury selections. And I heard a webinar yesterday that’s actually what I heard was some of the depositions and some of the trials are a 100 percent remote.

Liel: [00:21:23] Now, Grace, it is sufficient. It’s just the bottom line, right? It’s efficient. And the compromise in human interaction, it’s not enough to make. It’s relatively low, OK? Again, I still think there’s going to be a lot that will call for in person. Yes. And there is always going to be a segment of your market that will want to have the in-person side. Right.

Liel: [00:21:52] And so this is the time also, where certain law firms are going to have to make those decisions. Are we going to continue wanting to be a law firm for all or are we going to make the hard call and say, you know what, in the sake of being able to provide an amazing client experience to a particular demographic group, we’re going to do and go after these kind of client that wants either the online-only experience or the in-person only experience. Right, Grace.

Liel: [00:22:28] And that brings us to the next point, which is micro-niches. And while online-only or in-person only doesn’t necessarily narrow it down to a micro-niche, it certainly talks about the need of understanding who are you trying to sell? Who is your ideal client, Grace? And I’ll tell you, I mean, going back again to the conversations that we’ve had of this year, right? We had Law tigers’ here in the podcast.

Liel: [00:22:59] And what Ari was sharing is that, you know, they build an entire marketing machine that is laser-focused on a particular kind of persona. Right. And which obviously are motorcycle riders. But then even within that demographic group, then it actually diversifies. Right. And I’m you know, I’m going to sound pathetic here, trying to hold a different kind of riders. But, you know, those who are the I guess the Harley Davidson kind of driver are one kind of market. And those who are raising those, Ducatis, Suzukis, Hondas go for a different lifestyle choice as a whole.

Liel: [00:23:49] But they have a strategy for both. And it’s really a great example of the importance and value of actually doing your micro-niches right. As a digital marketing that specializes in the Hispanic market, you would think, OK, the Hispanic market is already a micro-niche. You may think actually the Hispanic market in certain markets can be as big as 80 or 90 percent of the demographic group, particularly here in Texas. If you look at certain cities, some other areas in the country, not so much, hardly gets to six, seven, eight percent. But on markets where it’s super big, you can actually micro niche inside the Hispanic market, right, you have all kinds of Hispanics, the English speaking Hispanics, you have the Spanish speaking Hispanics, right. And then you can look at nationalities and backgrounds and decide, you know, like if you’re in New York, you may want to decide, you know, I want to focus on Colombian’s or Ecuadoreans or I want to focus on the Puerto Ricans, or you can try to capture them all. But you have to still acknowledge that within that group there are different backgrounds, nationalities and therefore different personas. And Grace, I think, again, that those kind of strategies that are just like one same message across the board. That’s it, that’s it. Those who were able to survive with that up until now, grat on them, it’s not going to transcend. It’s not going to it’s not going to fly moving forward. Why? Because newer low firms, newer brands are going to emerge that will have that understanding and that hyper-focus on particular demographic segments. And there are going to be able to establish better, stronger, more deep connections than law firms have just been there forever with the same message for every single demographic group in the market. What do you think?

Grace: [00:25:53] Definitely. I mean, you know, it’s funny because when you hear niche, you think small, right? You think hyper focused and tiny group maybe. But like you said, Hispanics. Right. That could be considered a niche. But then there’s a niche within the niche, within the niche. So something about micro-niches is a thousand percent Liel, people need to just focus on what they’re good at. And they can if they focus on a specific practice area that they just happened to blow out of the water for whatever reason. It’s something that speaks to them and so they can speak to that market and build and be successful in a micro-niche.

Liel: [00:26:28] Yeah, I agree. Grace so to me, that’s exciting. To me, that’s full of opportunity. And I think we will for a very long time continue to work to have conversations that are about understanding who are you talking to all the time. So. Grace, I think before we go into our takeaways, there is one more point, and I think that Sally here is spot on in bringing it up. And that’s the one thing we can all agree on, is that 2020 in a way or another has been a year of social discourse and speaking up. Right.

Grace: [00:27:13] Right.

Liel: [00:27:13] You know, it’s not that it’s something that started this year, but I think a lot of messages about inclusion and diversity got amplified this year and for a good reason. Yes. And I think if anything, the trend will continue. Right. And it’s just about time, right, Grace. Or just adopt things that should have been normal, really. I mean, forever.

Grace: [00:27:42] They should have been a normal situation that diversity, inclusion and equality were part of our conversation.

Liel: [00:27:48] To have conversations about salary inequality. 

Grace: [00:27:54] The glass ceiling.

Liel: [00:27:55] Yeah. So Grace, you know, our podcast here has acknowledged this issue a few times here and there. And we’re by no means dismissive of it. But it’s just like we’re just so firmly believing in it. Right. That sometimes tend to forget that unfortunately, it is not the case everywhere else. And so I think particularly as younger generations are entering the labor force, as people are feeling more empowered and they’re feeling more in control, again, of the narrative as it should be, those who do not adapt and do not see the need of actually changing certain aspects of the way that we’ve been doing certain things are just doomed not to be relevant in the future. That’s right.

Grace: [00:28:48] That’s exactly what it boils down to. You will no longer be relevant because you are not being relevant to the individuals that you need to go after.

Liel: [00:28:55] Just think about attracting talent. Just think about attracting clients. Just think about your overall PR and marketing strategy. Yeah. Like it’s very, very, very, Grace, straightfoward.

Grace: [00:29:10] So I used to work in the steel industry and as part of certain things they require, you know, if you want to get government contracts or anything like that, they by law require you to have a certain number of diverse people working for you. And, you know, I do see that there’s been some sort of movement in that direction in some other industries. And actually, Sally is mentioning in her is a program called Mansfield Rule Certification, which is talking about promoting diversity in the workplace and having a certification that’s basically showing that you are and do believe and actually practice diversity, inclusion, and equality in your law firm or your business.

Liel: [00:29:53] Yeah, absolutely Grace.

Liel: [00:29:55] Another very, very important element that folds also into, I believe, this category, which is focus on sustainability.

Grace: [00:30:03] Yes. 

Liel: [00:30:04] Correct. Right. It’s super important topic that’s gaining a lot of attention from society as a general? Right. Because that’s another one of the causes of covid-19. There is a direct line that’s being traced that says, well, I mean, in part, one of the reasons why we are here could be attributed to climate change. Right. And so obviously, for a lot of people, this is actual point of a lot of interest. Right. And I think certain industries have been kind of like distancing themselves from it because they see, well, how am I a little firm going to have an impact into that? Well, you’ll have an impact into that through your community outreach or the way that you support other organizations in your marketing, in your community. And so that is another very powerful way of actually standing out from your competitors and stepping up to things that you actually believe in.

Liel: [00:30:59] Right, Grace. I mean, the possibilities are endless. And to actually side up with things that you believe in is actually a good step to take when you firmly align your values and your values and your team’s values to whatever it is that you’re advocating for. Grace, I think, you know, for a very long time, businesses as a whole, not just law firms, have been very, they’ve been holding themselves back from becoming too political or opinionated on certain things. Well, the reality is that the world in which we are now kind of like expects you to have a voice and a say on certain things. And so this is going to be something that some Law Firms will continue not doing. But I can see, particularly the younger new law firms having a more independent voice and siding up with certain things, and so I think it’s exciting.

Grace: [00:31:53] I agree. I mean, sustainability has become very important to a lot of people and you know as well as it should be, and including the green buildings, as simple as something like that. Right. With green buildings nowadays, you know, it’s a sustainable way of whether they purchase or lease it or whatever, that they actually look at the leases and make sure that the building they’re in is green. So it has become a very important part of the sustainability and part of the narrative. Right. Like you said, for 2021.

Liel: [00:32:21] We’re a solar-powered agency, in case you didn’t know, we take great pride on it.

Grace: [00:32:27] Are you really? No I didn’t know.

Liel: [00:32:28] I mean, we are energy efficient digital marketing agency.

Grace: [00:32:32] That’s pretty cool, I have to say.

Liel: [00:32:34] It is. It is. And we’re proud.

Liel: [00:32:35] So, Grace, it’s time for our takeaways. Right.

Liel: [00:32:39] And if this episode wasn’t already super packed with a lot of actionable tips and insights, let’s bring it down to three, Grace. And so take us away.

Grace: [00:32:52] So adjust your hiring and process for talent. Finding talent to be part of the new 2021, might include some automation, include some sort of technology and or at the very least have an idea and create a strategy that helps you focus on what the new things that are coming down the pipeline for your business and staff accordingly.

Liel: [00:33:17] Yeah, I agree with you, Grace. I think if by this point you haven’t yet been able to figure out how can we optimize operations. Right? How can we make improvements? How can we become more efficient, then potentially that’s a big opportunity that you have there and maybe you should consider bringing somebody into the team or establishing a partnership that can help you get on that track, right. So I would agree that if anything, there is a massive opportunity right now to strike good and full of impact partnerships or find the right talent that your Law Firm needs. Why? Because unfortunately, one of the consequences that this year has brought into the labor market is a lot of unemployment. And so that opens up massive opportunity for law firms that are actually growing and in position to hire to really, really, really pick and choose some super qualified candidates. So that’s there, right. And if you can and if that’s what you need, this is time to leverage that, Grace. So what’s the next thing, Grace?

Grace: [00:34:28] So I’m going to kind of combine two of the topics that we talked about into, one, focus on client experience and use technology to do it.

Grace: [00:34:37] That’s what I always tell people, you know, that I’m all about technology and automation where it makes sense. So increase your client experience, make it better and use at least one piece of technology to do that, whether it’s something simple, like personalizing your website when they land on it so that it says welcome, you know, Miami, Florida person, anything that will make it the client experience better, you need to implement at least one for the next year and have a strategy for it, of course.

Liel: [00:35:09] Yeah, absolutely, Grace. I’m going to go for it. I’m going to say the same thing about client experience, superimportant, all the touches that you can think of that could enhance the client experience.

Liel: [00:35:21] And here’s the thing, right? Ask, research. Don’t just assume that clients like or don’t like you have an opportunity to social listen in case you do get a decent amount of reviews. But if you’re not, then you should inquire and make it easy for your clients to share feedback with you. So that’s 100 percent accurate to say we have room for one last one.

Grace: [00:35:49] So I think takeaway number three kind of elaborates on what you just said. I think that if you do what you need to do for 2021, you will be able to figure out by asking your own clients and getting feedback, true feedback from the people that you are trying to serve. You will be able to find out what micro-niche and how to broaden. And commit to diversity, inclusion and equality, why? Because as part of your strategy and focusing on your clients and asking your clients, what do you want from me as your law firm, they will tell you, people, they want to tell you. And so you’ll be able to staff accordingly, increase your diversity within your own law firm to help your clients better. Right. Whether it’s Spanish speaking, Chinese, Mandarin specific to Korean, whatever it is, it will help your firm, your clients, and will increase the diversity and inclusion within your workforce because you are serving the client better.

Liel: [00:36:53] Yeah, that’s it. Diversity and inclusion and equality. That’s it, enough said. Takeaway number three. If you can get that, then I don’t know. Maybe…

Grace: [00:37:06] Coleson will help.

Liel: [00:37:06] I don’t know. I’ll stop there. Grace, thank you so much for such a wonderful conversation. I certainly enjoyed it. And we’ll be back next week. Right?

Grace: [00:37:16] Next week, promise.

Liel: [00:37:17] All right. Excellent. We’ll talk to you then. Have a great rest of your day. 

Grace: [00:37:21] Bye.

Liel: [00:37:25] If you like our show, make sure you subscribe. Tell your co-workers, leave us a review, and send us your questions to ask@incamerapodcast.com. We’ll see you next week.

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